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Aldo said:
Why won't they? With 4 tps per division they only need 16 divisions per landing. That should be enough I think.
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4 TP per div is nothing for US, which means:

a) There is no Pacific island hopping at all, as Japan has no chance in hell of defending more than 1 or 2 islands- US can easily get 48 or so transports (it should actually, even without rule), enabling it to stage huge 12 amphibious attacks, which wipe out small-like 3 divs defences immediately.

b) Defending atlantic wall is much too of a drain


I personally favor minimum 3 with 10 per 1 if you want more capacity. (that is, 31-40 means cap. 4, 41-50 cap 5, etc.)
 
DarthMaur said:
Well, it still can-although its indeed very hard, so its kind of valid point. Thats why there is that variation with minimal allowance of 2 or 3 units*




*If you can't beat Norway with 2 divisions (plus air&naval support, obviously, and paras), you not worthy of playing Germany, anyway :p
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Heh. Speaking of which, I attempted an invasion of Norway today as germany.

6 marine divisions commanded by a FM landed in Oslo against 5 norwegian divisions, supported by 12 squadrons of tac and 12 squadrons of dive. Result? Norwegian divisions smacked to ~80str 10org by the bombers, but the marines were unable to inflict much of any damage at all and retreated at 50-60str.

What am I doing wrong? :confused:
 
Slargos said:
Heh. Speaking of which, I attempted an invasion of Norway today as germany.

6 marine divisions commanded by a FM landed in Oslo against 5 norwegian divisions, supported by 12 squadrons of tac and 12 squadrons of dive. Result? Norwegian divisions smacked to ~80str 10org by the bombers, but the marines were unable to inflict much of any damage at all and retreated at 50-60str.

What am I doing wrong? :confused:
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You are landing in Oslo.

You should be landing either in: (i hope i got the provinces right)

-Stavenger, as its usually under-garrisoned, sometimes even no garrison.

Or use paras to secure a port without a beach, then just move your transports loaded with troops straight into port.

Come to think i just reavealed a tactic that you might have been unaware of. I mean, its not only important to garrison provinces with beaches, you still have to put at least one division in all port provinces :D
 
DarthMaur said:
You are landing in Oslo.

You should be landing either in: (i hope i got the provinces right)

-Stavenger, as its usually under-garrisoned, sometimes even no garrison.

Or use paras to secure a port without a beach, then just move your transports loaded with troops straight into port.

Come to think i just reavealed a tactic that you might have been unaware of. I mean, its not only important to garrison provinces with beaches, you still have to put at least one division in all port provinces :D
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Yes. I had not considered it. Thanks for the heads up. :D
 
DarthMaur said:
4 TP per div is nothing for US, which means:

a) There is no Pacific island hopping at all, as Japan has no chance in hell of defending more than 1 or 2 islands- US can easily get 48 or so transports (it should actually, even without rule), enabling it to stage huge 12 amphibious attacks, which wipe out small-like 3 divs defences immediately.

b) Defending atlantic wall is much too of a drain. I personally favor minimum 3 with 10 per 1 if you want more capacity. (that is, 31-40 means cap. 4, 41-50 cap 5, etc.)
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After discussing with Mad we have concluded that max 6 divisions is reasonable.

There were never any larger seabourne invasion than 6 divs in one province (Allied landings: 6 divs in Normandie, 4 on Okinawa. Japanese landings being much smaller). Perhaps the max 6 divs rule could be combined with some kind of tp requirement? Max 6 divs is pretty straightforward though and easy to remember.
 
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Aldo said:
After discussing with Mad we have concluded that max 6 divisions is reasonable.

There were never any larger seabourne invasion than 6 divs in one province (Allied landings: 6 divs in Normandie, 8 on the whole of Sicily, 4 on Okinawa. Japanese landings being much smaller). Perhaps the max 6 divs rule could be combined with some kind of tp requirement? Max 6 divs is pretty straightforward though and easy to remember.
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I'm not sure what you mean.

If you want complicated but good rule, it would be:

for every 10 TP, rounding up, you can have one division fighting on beach at one time, but:

minimal landing capacity, regardless of number of TP: 2 (or 3)
maximum landing capacity (here i am puzzled. Should there be one in first place? Certainly higher than 6 divs)
 
Aldo said:
So which of the above is best?
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That depends if you want to have redeployment into provinces that are beign targetted by enemy movement-meaning about to be attacked. If its ok, then first, if not, second. I'm unsure.
 
DarthMaur said:
I'm not sure what you mean.

If you want complicated but good rule, it would be:

for every 10 TP, rounding up, you can have one division fighting on beach at one time, but:

minimal landing capacity, regardless of number of TP: 2 (or 3)
maximum landing capacity (here i am puzzled. Should there be one in first place? Certainly higher than 6 divs)
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No there never was any larger invasion. D-Day (largest) was 5 inf divs and 3 tank brigades.
 
Aldo said:
No. Just that it is very unlikely. :) Those six divisions in Normandie were divided over more than two HoI provinces.
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Cherbourg and Caen. What other province?

Apart from the 'there could be' argument (tried searching for operation olympic plans, but can't find oob for first wave...), there are two more to allow bigger landings:

a) game-balance. It would be impossible, due to this rule, and not other factors, like coastal forts, terrain, etc, to invade certain places if they are defended.

b) scope. Sure, in Normandy there were 5 divs, but there were other quickly unloaded-in game terms, probably before beachhead battle ends.
 
DarthMaur said:
Cherbourg and Caen. What other province?

Apart from the 'there could be' argument (tried searching for operation olympic plans, but can't find oob for first wave...), there are two more to allow bigger landings:

a) game-balance. It would be impossible, due to this rule, and not other factors, like coastal forts, terrain, etc, to invade certain places if they are defended.

b) scope. Sure, in Normandy there were 5 divs, but there were other quickly unloaded-in game terms, probably before beachhead battle ends.
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0) Looking more closely at the map (p 152, Ryan, The longest day, 1959) the five main beaches are all between Caen and Cherbourg. The first 5 divisions did most of fighting and should be considered the landing force (please correct me if I am wrong).

a) Germany and Japan really needs a shot at keeping their beaches. That is a big plus for game balance. Perhaps max two simultanious 5 division landings is better? Or max 10 divs simultanious and max 6 per province?

b) In Hoi province terms (specially in France's provinces) there haven't been larger landings than 2-3 divs per province. 6 divisions is more than double the largest invasions of all times.

Btw, the 1.02 Beta rules are updated with all changes and debated subjects marked red.
 
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Aldo said:
0) Looking more closely at the map (p 152, Ryan, The longest day, 1959) the five main beaches are all between Caen and Cherbourg. The first 5 divisions did most of fighting and should be considered the landing force (please correct me if I am wrong).

a) Germany and Japan really needs a shot at keeping their beaches. That is a big plus for game balance. Perhaps max two simultanious 5 division landings is better? Or max 10 divs simultanious and max 6 per province?

b) In Hoi province terms (specially in France's provinces) there haven't been larger landings than 2-3 divs per province. 6 divisions is more than double the largest invasions of all times.

Btw, the 1.02 Beta rules are updated with all changes and debated subjects marked red.
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4 divs, historically. Caen province-all beaches except Utah were placed here ;)

I would guess olympic had even more.

Ah well, anyway-what i mean, is that it should be possible to make larger landings. Thats because it could have been done, and because game needs it (although it needs to be COSTLY. In terms of building enough ships, i mean)

From what i remember, unloading first wave (5 divs) only took 1 day, on D+1 there were another 3 (IIRC) divs unloaded.

To sum it up, there should be, IMHO, a way to invade with large number of divisions. I would like the rule to be: 1div per 10 TP, with minimum of 3 divisions.


If you think its too easy, just increase the TP requirment, but i am afraid of situation when SU gets defeated and Germany garrisons Europe with 24 divs on every beach. Or the opposite, US-UK doing it.
 
DarthMaur said:
4 divs, historically. Caen province-all beaches except Utah were placed here ;)

I would guess olympic had even more.

Ah well, anyway-what i mean, is that it should be possible to make larger landings. Thats because it could have been done, and because game needs it (although it needs to be COSTLY. In terms of building enough ships, i mean)

From what i remember, unloading first wave (5 divs) only took 1 day, on D+1 there were another 3 (IIRC) divs unloaded.

To sum it up, there should be, IMHO, a way to invade with large number of divisions. I would like the rule to be: 1div per 10 TP, with minimum of 3 divisions.

If you think its too easy, just increase the TP requirment, but i am afraid of situation when SU gets defeated and Germany garrisons Europe with 24 divs on every beach. Or the opposite, US-UK doing it.
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I know little of Operation Olympic, only that in total 80 000 troops were involved of which 60 000 were soldiers or sailors (3 Marine divisions) and 20 000 of them (1 division) were in reserve.

We want a simple straight forward rule. Max 6 divs is such a rule and it is a greater number than was ever used in reality.

Besides, a human player will always concentrate their landing units in the same province to maximize probability of success. That means that if we have unrestricted (or only tp dependant limit) USA can land an unrealistic number of divs in one province and Germany will be forced to guard with much larger forces than in history to be able to hold the beaches.

So either Germany can not turn on SU (tying up unrealistic number of divs at Atlantic wall) or an invasion will be easy for USA which we do not want.

With restricted seabourne landing forces paras will come to use in a more historical way. They can be used to strengthen the invasion from paradrops.

I am not against tp-restricted limits as well but I think it will be to much to keep track of. One question though - with tp limits - you need to have all the required tps in the actual invasion fleet right? Having 6 tps in fleet and 54 in New York makes little sense.
 
True, but otherwise it won't be manageable at all-as you notice, its already quite complicated.

Well, i was concerned with rather theoretical possibilities (you do that if you are INTP ;)), so straightforward 6 divs max rule should be suffiecent, at least for now. Hopefully HOI 2 introduces landing ships ;)
 
DarthMaur said:
True, but otherwise it won't be manageable at all-as you notice, its already quite complicated.

Well, i was concerned with rather theoretical possibilities (you do that if you are INTP ;)), so straightforward 6 divs max rule should be suffiecent, at least for now. Hopefully HOI 2 introduces landing ships ;)
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Please go on scrutize the rest of the rules now (specially the red sections). :)
 
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