Democratic Interlink is not really Thematic

[Brod.]

Democratic Interlink

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Consciousness interfaces allow real-time sharing of sensory data, emotional responses, and thought patterns between full cyborgs. As a safeguard against the sensitivity of intense extra-body responses, emotional firewalls filter out unwanted responses to shared emotive data packets.
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I like the description and idea, but the implementation is terrible.
Unlocks the Self-Preservation Override edict < That sounds more like what a dystopian dictatorship would do.

So I have a suggestion for reworking the effects.

−15% Empire size from pops
−25% Leader cost
+5% Job efficiency
+10 Stability
−15% Non-Cybernetic happiness
Cybernetic pops have the average happiness of all Cybernetic pops on the planet.
(They share their impressions and feelings with each other, the sorrow and joy of each one becoming the sorrow and joy of all.)

(+10% egalitarian ethics attraction for cyborg pops)

 

[Armagodura]

Glad to see someone else with this stance on this (I also made a suggestion requesting tweaks here, before)!
The effects you're suggesting reinforce what I like to think of as this governance's fundamental trait: cyber-enhanced super empathy, a concept that I honestly find absolutely beautiful.
I hate to see the current ingame effects and civic be something so strongly incompatible with that idea.

Additionally we could enhance this governance's flavor by also stating that due to the mental connection with eachother, cybernetic pops are much better at cooperating and working in tandem. This could simply justify the job efficiency bonus or it could be the basis of a new, much more fitting civic to replace "Self-preservation override"

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Cybernetic pops have the average happiness of all Cybernetic pops on the planet.
(They share their impressions and feelings with each other, the sorrow and joy of each one becoming the sorrow and joy of all.)

A more concrete version: +10000% egalitarian ethics attraction for cyborg pops. Cannot choose any living standards but Social Welfare, Utopian Abundance, Chemical Bliss, and Shared Burdens (or, in other words, all strata get the same happiness bonus).

If everyone is in the same faction, and everyone has the same happiness from living standards (at least, within the same template), then everyone gets the same happiness, for the most part. They could go one further and make a new living standard which is basically UA but cheaper, and lock you into that.

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I agree with the core premise that it seems extremely dystopian. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing: it makes them into a pseudo gestalt, as the extreme end of collectivism and interconnectedness. So that's basically exactly what it's going for.

I just think that the end result is mechanically bad (no more need for amenities, high crime, etc.), and also wish there were a more utopian version of extreme collectivism available. So I'd be fine with crime going to zero, or it swapping to be more utopian: either way is fine. But the current state feels bad.

 

[Armagodura]

I agree with the core premise that it seems extremely dystopian. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing: it makes them into a pseudo gestalt, as the extreme end of collectivism and interconnectedness. So that's basically exactly what it's going for.

I just think that the end result is mechanically bad (no more need for amenities, high crime, etc.), and also wish there were a more utopian version of extreme collectivism available. So I'd be fine with crime going to zero, or it swapping to be more utopian: either way is fine. But the current state feels bad.

In my opinion, if the devs are to give us a dystopian option, everything about it should be consistent, flavor-wise. The description of the governance itself sounds utopian to me (people gaining greater empathy for eachother), but the effects and the civic both portray a dystopian society instead (people becoming almost mindless pawns of the state).

 

[Abdulijubjub]

In my opinion, if the devs are to give us a dystopian option, everything about it should be consistent, flavor-wise. The description of the governance itself sounds utopian to me (people gaining greater empathy for eachother), but the effects and the civic both portray a dystopian society instead (people becoming almost mindless pawns of the state).

There's no contradiction there, except that you're describing the player as "the state". They gain complete interconnectedness, and the distinction between individuals ceases to matter.

They become a hive mind (a gestalt). There is no difference between "the people" and "the state".

 

[Armagodura]

There's no contradiction there, except that you're describing the player as "the state". They gain complete interconnectedness, and the distinction between individuals ceases to matter.

They become a hive mind (a gestalt). There is no difference between "the people" and "the state".

Depends on interpretation. For instance, I believe greater empathy doesn't need to come at the price of one's individuality.
Democratic Interlink could very well represent either "everyone is connected to everyone else's feelings" or "people can connect to the feelings of those around them at the moment as a part of communication"

 

[Sibericus]

A more concrete version: +10000% egalitarian ethics attraction for cyborg pops. Cannot choose any living standards but Social Welfare, Utopian Abundance, Chemical Bliss, and Shared Burdens (or, in other words, all strata get the same happiness bonus).

Hear me out. The cyborg pops should obviously get some passive Egalitarian ethics attraction bonus due to direct empathic connections and governance attraction due to systemic ideological implementations, but more significantly, attraction to the largest local governing ethics. This would be good for preserving your governing ethics (if it isn't egalitarian) for the sake of Crowdsourcing, but also very bad if one were to assimilate a highly xenophobic species into the collective without converting their ethics first. Former Fanatic Purifiers becoming more Xenophobic and making other aliens that join them more xenophobic. Authoritarians pulling people into the mindset that authoritarianism is correct.

Also, just enable the self-preservation override as an option for any collectivist cybernetic authority, and make that specificically turn off happiness. Just to hammer home that any cybernetic society can become dystopian at the flick of a switch.

 

[HFY]

Also, just enable the self-preservation override as an option for any cybernetic authority, and make that specificically turn off happiness. Just to hammer home that any cybernetic society can become dystopian at the flick of a switch.

For me that'd be a failure.

An actual Egalitarian society wouldn't add personality-kill-switches into your cybernetics. YOU would control your cybernetics.

Maybe if your empire had Shadow Council ("Fake Democracy") or some other anti-Democratic civic or condition imposed, then it could make sense, but in a genuine Egalitarian Democracy, there's nobody who should have that kind of power, and no reason citizens should be so poorly informed as to accept it.

 

[Sibericus]

For me that'd be a failure.

An actual Egalitarian society wouldn't add personality-kill-switches into your cybernetics. YOU would control your cybernetics.

Maybe if your empire had Shadow Council ("Fake Democracy") or some other anti-Democratic civic or condition imposed, then it could make sense, but in a genuine Egalitarian Democracy, there's nobody who should have that kind of power, and no reason citizens should be so poorly informed as to accept it.

A democracy needn't add it intentionally, but they are still installing direct links to the brains of their citizens for the sake of convenience. Functionally speaking, that is a massive security flaw. Even with security measures, there would always be a non-zero possibility that someone could hijack the software or a faulty update accidentally turns off the people's emotions and any motivation to restore them.

 

[HFY]

A democracy needn't add it intentionally, but they are still installing direct links to the brains of their citizens for the sake of convenience. Functionally speaking, that is a massive security flaw. Even with security measures, there would always be a non-zero possibility that someone could hijack the software or a faulty update accidentally turns off the people's emotions and any motivation to restore them.

A government Edict would be a very poor way to model that kind of mistake.

There could be events which have naughty things happen to citizen's cybernetics, but there should NOT be a whole authority built around a Democracy which intends to screw its citizens.

It's not the only bad Cybernetic Authority, but it's one of the worst mismatches between intended flavor and actual mechanics.

 

[Sibericus]

It's not the only bad Cybernetic Authority, but it's one of the worst mismatches between intended flavor and actual mechanics.

Which is why I suggested just giving that specific edict to every collectivist cybernetic authority. Because then tyrannical regimes can turn their people into the mindless servants they were clearly always meant to be. Reminder that not all democracies are egalitarian, and not all elected officials have the people's best interests at heart.