Devs just giving up on bug fixing?

[Cornutus]

I have a really bad impression that it's not just prioritizing new content over bugs.

HOI4 releases 1 big DLC/year and 1 small country pack per year for the past 3 years, which are done by separate teams.

I have a hard time believing that the 1 big DLC takes 52 weeks*40 hours*1 developer = 2000+ hours to develop. In reality there are multiple developers.

Is it reasonable to believe that Gotterdammerung or Trial of Allegiance took (assuming 3 devs) 6000+ hours to develop?

Saying "QA and balance checks take up the time" doesn't fly; the bugs observed are very frequently too obvious (even though I am sure some unknown ones got caught before release).

I would argue the HOI4 dev team needs an audit from upper management or external consultants on where the paid time is going.

It seems to me that the amount of output is clearly not on par with other dev teams (EUIV, Stellaris, Victoria 3, CK3),

Bug fixing seems to simply be something that is foregone to get the main product (major DLC) delivered every year to avoid bad questions.

When the real problem is likely the underutilization of existing resources.

The argument that "DLCs pay for bug fixing" I have heard since 2016, and on the opposite, it seems that bigger and more influential bugs started mounting as time passed by.

 

[Umbosch]

For example, I really like the addition of special projects as they add greatly to mods like cold war stuff as well as interesting tech that did exist during WW2 (helicopters), however it definitely could have been integrated with the existing tech tree a bit more as well as including other similar things like cryptology and blueprint stealing. They had a good idea going and with just a bit more polish it could have been even better but instead of that we get a Liechtenstein Alaska purchase focus and Belgian EU path

Yes they have many good ideas. But they don't complete them. I remember that for some things the modifier is # add something good. It's just that nobody has added anything good or anything at all. For this reason I gave Japan's "Samurai" trait its own modifier. 10% attack on close combat tactics didn't work. But 10% on attack did. The old guard from the navy I also had to buy a drink. I understand that sometimes you forget something with all the good ideas and all the work. But that's why it gives superiors or other teams.

I don't want to and I won't accuse Paradox of deliberately selling buggy DLC. Even if the circular conclusion is obvious. But I somehow have the impression that they aren't testing properly or that they simply don't play the game themselves, for example air adviser, focus events or the focus unit templates. Otherwise it would "jump in their eyes". I mean, they still build in agents with the trait Lingusit and present it in the preview like in the last DLC. And then you can say hey, that won't work. They don't react. Maybe they just sit it out.

My suggestion is that, in addition to all the influencers, they should just write to the people with the most bug reports: Heh, interested in testing the new nation x or y or game mechanic z for bugs? If no major bugs are reported for 1-2 months, you can keep the DLC or get a discount. If the bug total for your nation or mechanic is X+, we'll delete it.

Hasn't something like this happened before? Weren't there opportunities to apply for tests in the forum? Was participation too low or was Paradox no longer interested?

 

[General Tao]

Since „No Step Back“ there have been 45 patches without price tag attached with balancing and bug fixes… but is counting…

Perhaps if Pdox had a more robust QA process for its DLCs there wouldn't need to be 45 patches and counting of bug fixes.

Not trying to be glib here, needing this many patches to fix new content broken on release or previously working content broken with a new dlc is not the positive statistic you seem to be implying here.

 

[William9113]

Perhaps if Pdox had a more robust QA process for its DLCs there wouldn't need to be 45 patches and counting of bug fixes.

Not trying to be glib here, needing this many patches to fix new content broken on release or previously working content broken with a new dlc is not the positive statistic you seem to be implying here.

Yeah it's a bit like saying "we've responded to a bug being spotted in our restaurant on demand 45 times! what more do you want us to do!?"

How about...... stomp the big ugly ones out before your customers spot them for you......

 

[Umbosch]

Yeah it's a bit like saying "we've responded to a bug being spotted in our restaurant on demand 45 times! what more do you want us to do!"

How about...... stomp them out before your customers spot them for you......

Like with Blockaderunner. There was no interest anymore in fixing the bug. Maybe it was to difficult. Only when they had rebuilt the Admiral trait build and it was a prerequisite for something did they take action. They didn't really fix it. Because they couldn't. In my opinion they just changed the mechanics of earn it. But it's ok. The main thing is that it works.

 

[herr anfsim]

I don't want to and I won't accuse Paradox of deliberately selling buggy DLC. Even if the circular conclusion is obvious. But I somehow have the impression that they aren't testing properly or that they simply don't play the game themselves, for example air adviser, focus events or the focus unit templates. Otherwise it would "jump in their eyes". I mean, they still build in agents with the trait Lingusit and present it in the preview like in the last DLC. And then you can say hey, that won't work. They don't react. Maybe they just sit it out.

While I dont suspect them of creating buggy content on purpose I do believe it is quite clear that they release content they know to not be in the state it should, be that in the form of lack of polish, bugfixing or that the content simply isnt good. For AAT, the game director himself admitted that he wasnt happy with the content for one of the main countries of that DLC, where several paths would flat out break extremely easily, but they still shipped on date and only made limited adjustments post release. To me, that indicates that they are willing to set the bar quite low in order to meet deadlines and that they are well aware of the problems that will create down the road, though they might not always have made the effort to identify said problems pre release.

In the end, I guess we as consumers are to blame. A company often wont spend more resources than absolutely nescesarry, and though I am sure the induvidual developers would love more time to create quality products, they will never get that as long as "higher ups" sees customers more than willing to pay more for less quality.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Let alone reworking the Arabia formable to make it less WC-requiring.

Granted it's a suggestion rather than a bug, but having it not coring Oman or Yemen if we didn't form it as them is certainly the buggy part.

 

[generalbober]

Not that i think your sentiment is wrong, but a lot of the designers who make focus trees, and especially the artists, will not be any good at fixing bugs in the c++ code. It would be more accurate to request they take a break from DLCs so that the programmers can work on the bugs and the designers can work on improving older content.

This is pretty much what I meant.

 

[generalbober]

While I dont suspect them of creating buggy content on purpose I do believe it is quite clear that they release content they know to not be in the state it should, be that in the form of lack of polish, bugfixing or that the content simply isnt good. For AAT, the game director himself admitted that he wasnt happy with the content for one of the main countries of that DLC, where several paths would flat out break extremely easily, but they still shipped on date and only made limited adjustments post release. To me, that indicates that they are willing to set the bar quite low in order to meet deadlines and that they are well aware of the problems that will create down the road, though they might not always have made the effort to identify said problems pre release.

In the end, I guess we as consumers are to blame. A company often wont spend more resources than absolutely nescesarry, and though I am sure the induvidual developers would love more time to create quality products, they will never get that as long as "higher ups" sees customers more than willing to pay more for less quality.

I largely agree, but I also think that the "fix bugs and charge more" strategy hasn't been sufficiently tested out. I would love to see them release a "bug dlc" (obviously call and market it as something else) that focuses solely on game mechanics and fixing bugs.

They should release a DLC targeting solely naval mechanics but have 50% of it be just bug fixing and cleaning up (with the marketing focused on the naval aspect).

 

[generalbober]

I have a really bad impression that it's not just prioritizing new content over bugs.

HOI4 releases 1 big DLC/year and 1 small country pack per year for the past 3 years, which are done by separate teams.

I have a hard time believing that the 1 big DLC takes 52 weeks*40 hours*1 developer = 2000+ hours to develop. In reality there are multiple developers.

Is it reasonable to believe that Gotterdammerung or Trial of Allegiance took (assuming 3 devs) 6000+ hours to develop?

Saying "QA and balance checks take up the time" doesn't fly; the bugs observed are very frequently too obvious (even though I am sure some unknown ones got caught before release).

I would argue the HOI4 dev team needs an audit from upper management or external consultants on where the paid time is going.

It seems to me that the amount of output is clearly not on par with other dev teams (EUIV, Stellaris, Victoria 3, CK3),

Bug fixing seems to simply be something that is foregone to get the main product (major DLC) delivered every year to avoid bad questions.

When the real problem is likely the underutilization of existing resources.

The argument that "DLCs pay for bug fixing" I have heard since 2016, and on the opposite, it seems that bigger and more influential bugs started mounting as time passed by.

As someone who lives in Europe and knows some computer devs, I can tell you that most of these people have a ton of free time on their hands. They aren't working 9-5 every day. A lot of it is work from home (and Sweden has a ridiculous amount of vacation time guaranteed). I wouldn't be surprised if they spend less than 4 hours a day actually working, less than 2-3 if you exclude meetings.

 

[General Tao]

The main thing is that it works.

Blockade runner works? Getting a task force that does over 37kts is practically impossible IMO, unless you build a bunch of purposefully empty vessels, or wait until modern BBs with nuclear engines...unless I'm missing something? 37kts, given speed reductions in many tiles, seems absurdly high.

As someone who lives in Europe and knows some computer devs, I can tell you that most of these people have a ton of free time on their hands. They aren't working 9-5 every day.

OK, shared concern about Pdox bugfixing aside, that's a ridiculous statement lmao.

 

[Cornutus]

As someone who lives in Europe and knows some computer devs, I can tell you that most of these people have a ton of free time on their hands. They aren't working 9-5 every day. A lot of it is work from home (and Sweden has a ridiculous amount of vacation time guaranteed). I wouldn't be surprised if they spend less than 4 hours a day actually working, less than 2-3 if you exclude meetings.

I am an adult, I know companies where it's quite normal to take breaks (for the gym, coffee talks, etc) and still get paid for the full 8 hours.

To an extent that's fine, when things get done on time despite free time.

But it seems to me, things are not fine right now, with regards to bugs and a bunch of other problems that people complain about.

I also see that the amount of output does not appear to match the amount of people and their paid hours.

I could be wrong, and indeed the HOI4 team is syphoning most of their time on the unannounced HOI5, or there are many bugs we don't know about that eat away paid time before the bugs we know about get addressed.

But either way, I don't trust the dev team anymore, as they have their own self-interest to "minimize work time, maximize paid time" and it seems there is no external detailed oversight over them.

So I do believe someone external to dev team needs to look at what's going on.

After all, if the problem is that there aren't enough resources: maybe offshoring some positions to India for cheaper wages and more headcount would help.

Not even sure if "an offshore solution" would dramatically increase buggyness to be quite honest.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

As someone who lives in Europe and knows some computer devs, I can tell you that most of these people have a ton of free time on their hands. They aren't working 9-5 every day. A lot of it is work from home (and Sweden has a ridiculous amount of vacation time guaranteed). I wouldn't be surprised if they spend less than 4 hours a day actually working, less than 2-3 if you exclude meetings.

While i shared your concern about the lack of bugfixing from the devs so far, this statement is just ridiculous.

 

[Umbosch]

Not even sure if "an offshore solution" would dramatically increase buggyness to be quite honest.

Star Trek Infinity had the same co-op desync errors as Stellaris. But they were apparently fixed there. Not in Star Trek due to the developer or publisher contract. So I don't think outsourcing will fix the problem. For the money I invested in a game that I wanted to play with friends and that doesn't work, I could have announced a contest in the HOI IV user mods forum: bucks for bugs!

 

[ZeDoctor1918]

I would argue the HOI4 dev team needs an audit from upper management or external consultants on where the paid time is going.

As much as I agree with this I think we know it would be a foregone conclusion all that would result in is "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing."

Plus given there is virtually zero competition, even *if* gross mismanagement was discovered there would be little to no reason to change course.

 

[Umbosch]

As much as I agree with this I think we know it would be a foregone conclusion all that would result in is "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing."

Plus given there is virtually zero competition, even *if* gross mismanagement was discovered there would be little to no reason to change course.

In contrast to other game manufacturers, the share price is still going up. So that proves them right. It could also be because the DLC is placed accordingly. Even if Arheo says that this is not the case. Even if it was, it would be fine for me. If the quality was right. I want to play. You want to make money. Deal?!

But maybe it's also like in other companies that get too old and big, that certain things and problems are no longer brought to the attention of the top. This remember me of Waterworld. Where Dennis Hopper talks to the old man (the one man Bug fix team) in the tanker belly.

 

[Mefisto1029]

Since „No Step Back“ there have been 45 patches without price tag attached with balancing and bug fixes… but is counting…

So you are claiming that we should be thankful for 45 patches for free since 23 November 2021, meanwhile Factorio since 21 October 2024 (release of the Space Age dlc) got 35 patches for free... I know its bad comparison because PDX is small inde company...

I just wish PDX would go for some sort of a team/group of people who would have access to beta code of game, and would be able to fix bugs/improve old content for free. I'm sure there are people who would want that.

 

[ZeDoctor1918]

Since „No Step Back“ there have been 45 patches without price tag attached with balancing and bug fixes… but is counting…

I know what you are trying to say, but when some people paid ~$100 (NSB, BBA, AAT, ToA, GTD) for dlcs, expecting it to be a working as intended product isn't exactly an outrageous expectation. Most people understand that things can slip through the cracks on release, though sometimes it seems more like a ravine then a crack, but if something isn't addressed within the first or second patch (which even that is far from a guarantee a concern is even properly addressed) then it seems like it is completely abandoned and then the next dlc is announced.

 

[Nephandus]

I know what you are trying to say, but when some people paid ~$100 (NSB, BBA, AAT, ToA, GTD) for dlcs, expecting it to be a working as intended product isn't exactly an outrageous expectation. Most people understand that things can slip through the cracks on release, though sometimes it seems more like a ravine then a crack, but if something isn't addressed within the first or second patch (which even that is far from a guarantee a concern is even properly addressed) then it seems like it is completely abandoned and then the next dlc is announced.

What can I say… I guess, it is always a matter of perspective and perception. I play the game myself, I own every single DLC of it, I preordered it in 2016 and I have 1300 hours of playtime. In all these years I encountered one bug, I considered game-breaking and a couple I deemed immersion breaking. Is the game perfect in my opinion? No. But I do see constant improvement. Am I getting riled up about old bugs that haven‘t been fixed yet or new ones? No, because it is just a game… I can choose if I want to play it or not. And if the situation gets bad enough for me, I can write it off.

But one fact remains: gaming industry is no charity and fixing things also cost money. And if the product is not to my satisfaction, I either try to refund it or throw it away. Either way I wont invest anything into it anymore, neither money or emotion.

But that is only my personal viewpoint.

 

[Umbosch]

Blockade runner works? Getting a task force that does over 37kts is practically impossible IMO, unless you build a bunch of purposefully empty vessels, or wait until modern BBs with nuclear engines...unless I'm missing something? 37kts, given speed reductions in many tiles, seems absurdly high.

Sorry. I play too much Manchukuo and am currently working on the best strategy after Paradox stole 1000 autonomy points from me and Japan recently launched juni 38 successful invasions on Tsingtao. I only have T1 DD. My dream are speedboats. I gave up on BC here in the Yellow Sea. But I really won't get to play at sea until 1942 and test Blockade runner.

The way they explained it back then, it sounded logical to me. If I remember correctly, they also said it was only a provisional measure. And they wanted to make improvements again.

And I notice again how much the trading system annoys me. Japan buys iron from me as puppet. I'm usually in the red and have to make up for it. Either Japan orders more iron from me or I have a surplus. And as soon as I cancel my own import, Japan orders more so that I'm again in the red. The best minigame ever.