Dimensional fabricator FE building feedback

[T5_k]

So... this building is kinda frustrating as it is now, in the context of changed Stellaris 4.0 economy.

It was not extremely strong before - it did let you get some pretty wild rare resource numbers, but that required dedicating 2-3 building slots on each and every planet.

However, now it is buildable only in Heavy Industry districts, putting a practical limit on how many you can build - and compared to other buildings that go in those slots, it kinda sucks.
Rare resource production buildings now affect industrial jobs directly, turning their output from what was +3-4 to +300 or more on a developed industrial world. Ancient refinery further increases this.

Compared to those numbers, the +7 / +2 you used to get from the DimensiFab seem silly, but now you get +4 / +1, which is sillier

Aditionally, it is the only FE building (apart from extradimensional depo) that gives no jobs - I like the change that all FE buildings now give jobs directly, so if the devs could find it in their hearts to also do it for DimensiFab... that would be fab.

(DimensiFab was also the only way to feed 1000s of pops with dank matter engines)

 

[RingworldUtopia]

i would love if it could compete with the ancient refinery, and add all of its production to every industrial job, while being a planetary unique. that would actually make it better than the ancient refinery, as the refinery does not make dark matter. and it gives an alternate path to dark matter engines, without having to take the civic.

 

[ahicaar]

It sucks because the current arrangement of strategic production is game-breaking overpowered. If you couldn't get dozens or hundreds of each resource as a single forgeworld's afterthought, it would be quite good. The new system is the problem.

if the devs could find it in their hearts to also do it for DimensiFab... that would be fab

The lack of jobs was one of the fabricator's great strengths before. Removing that and requiring you to commit pops to getting that same output would be a straight nerf.

 

[RingworldUtopia]

It sucks because the current arrangement of strategic production is game-breaking overpowered. If you couldn't get dozens or hundreds of each resource as a single forgeworld's afterthought, it would be quite good. The new system of strategic production is the problem.

The lack of jobs was one of the fabricator's great strengths before. Removing that and requiring you to commit pops to getting that same output would be a straight nerf.

no i think the new system is better, it just needs to do what the new system does and modify jobs as a planetary unique instead of being a flat output.

 

[ahicaar]

i think the new system is better,

Given that the new system renders strategic resources entirely meaningless as a resource, that is a very strange position to adopt.

 

[aadf97799c]

ability to produce dark matte and living metal at tier 2 are the impressive part

 

[RingworldUtopia]

Given that the new system renders strategic resources entirely meaningless as a resource, that is a very strange position to adopt.

if you were playing tall in the old system, you were literally capped by strategic resources. it made tall unplayable. with the new system you can develop DEEP (tall) and get the resources you need. when strategic resources were rare they were used in far fewer things. them being more available if you develop your economy for it was inevitable as soon as everything started costing strategic resources. balance pass can still happen, but i don't think it needs a massive nerf, just a small tweak at most. superpowers should have large incomes of strategic resources. that's how the world works, especially when they are required for building your fleet because of so many components guzzling them.

you also need to keep in mind that the new pop economy also means new economy numbers across the board. 1 strategic resource previously is equivalent to far more now. just think of it as a currency conversion. just as the jobs are a currency conversion. 1 pop used to represent billions, now maybe every 1000 represents one billion i don't know.

 

[15JTaylor]

I do want to say that the devs have made it clear they think the buildings are too plentiful in their view, but they're holding off on anything substantial until after the summer. So we will probably see nerfs to FE buildings after the summer, not buffs. At least we have until probably September to enjoy them as is, so enjoy them while you can.

 

[Dr Pippy]

Given that the new system renders strategic resources entirely meaningless as a resource, that is a very strange position to adopt.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I've actually appreciated not having to stress about finding enough building slots to get enough strategic resources. It's probably less balanced, at least in the sense that it renders a bunch of other buildings and features obsolete, but I find myself enjoying it more.

 

[RingworldUtopia]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I've actually appreciated not having to stress about finding enough building slots to get enough strategic resources. It's probably less balanced, at least in the sense that it renders a bunch of other buildings and features obsolete, but I find myself enjoying it more.

same, the game used to literally come to a stall at key points because you didn't have anywhere to grow your strategic resource income, those bottlenecks are now gone and the game feels like a consistent growth now whenever you want it to be. it's far more enjoyable and has removed an annoying pain point especially if you weren't trying to conquer every neighbour. i'm fine with small adjustments to the numbers, but i really think people are overreacting to an entirely new economy and holding onto old conceptions instead of embracing the new.

 

[jedavis]

Now the stall is purely a tech stall to draw the refineries, and once you get them deployed it's kind of a boolean 0 to 1 shift where they are no longer scarce and no longer a limiting factor. Honestly I like the not having to stress about having a deep enough crystal bank to build all my relays or enough gas production to feed all my labs. I do wish they were decoupled from alloy/CG production; I wish we could get a district specialization that let us just do refining jobs rather than needing to produce more alloys than I can use as a byproduct (same issue applies to raw resource gatherers; I don't need all of these minerals, but I do need the motes or whatever).

 

[ahicaar]

it made tall unplayable

I exclusively play tall. I promise you, it did not. It wasn’t even particularly hard, if you play smart.

with the new system you can develop DEEP (tall) and get the resources you need

with 3 buildings (eventually just one) in your entire empire, you get an amount which is literally impossible to spend in gameplay.

1 strategic resource previously is equivalent to far more now.

This is flatly not true. If you max out every possible way of “spending” strategic resources, you will still be running a surplus in the dozens, if not hundreds per month.

I've actually appreciated not having to stress about finding enough building slots to get enough strategic resources.

And I prefer being expected to make strategic choices and assigning priorities based on opportunity cost, not playing cookie clicker to watch line go up.

The point of any resource, in any game, is to limit what you can do. Doesn’t matter if it’s alloys or mana or actions per turn. if you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, then decisions are meaningless.

 

[RingworldUtopia]

The point of any resource, in any game, is to limit what you can do

i think we have very different definition of video game

 

[ahicaar]

i think we have very different definition of video game

Tell me, why does the stamina bar exist in elden ring? Why does Dante need to spend guage to activate devil trigger? Why do you need to manage ammo in resident evil or silent hill? Why do units cost gold in Warcraft? Why do spells cost mana in basically any RPG? Why do higher-level spells cost more mana than lower-level spells?

The purpose of a finite resource, in any game, is to force strategic and/or tactical decisions about how best to manage a given problem, beyond simply pressing the button which makes the biggest number over and over until the credits roll.

There are no decisions in the current state of strategic resources. It’s a binary; You either haven’t researched the tech, or you have a functionally infinite supply. Planet and system deposits are irrelevant. The merchant enclaves are irrelevant. Species traits like scintillating skin are irrelevant. You can’t even use them as a bargaining chip with other empires now, because they ALSO have infinite supply. They are entirely pointless to have in the game right now.

 

[Drullo321]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I've actually appreciated not having to stress about finding enough building slots to get enough strategic resources. It's probably less balanced, at least in the sense that it renders a bunch of other buildings and features obsolete, but I find myself enjoying it more.

The issue is not only it is way overtuned but that those other obsolete sources weren't properly adjusted.

The new system rely on consuming tons of those ressources for new consumers like the new research boost buildings. This isn't a problem in 3/4 of all cases as the overtuned strategic synthesation buildings do their job.

However there are civics/origins/playstyles which either doesn't have access to standard CG/Alloy production or not in a way it makes sense for them to focus on CG/Alloy production in the first case in a way that lets those strategic synthesation buildings produce tons of them.

But basically no other strategic ressource gain was adjusted to the amount you need in 4.0 and are still stuck in 3.14 mode.
Buffing the dimensional replicator building doesn't solve this issue as it just further pushes players to mandatory cosmogenisis which is very boring.

People who like the new easiness of stratetig ressource gathering probably didn't play anything outside of their 0815 standard UNE playthrough. That is totally fine but please have a look outside of the box to see some underlying problems with the new system.

 

[Ishyro]

I don't mind the ability to mass produce these resources, and I would expect a fallen empire building to be even better at it.

I do mind the fact that the cost of creating these resources (upkeep only, which is greatly reduced by ascension) is too low, and can even become irrelevant. A planet producing rare resources should produce less/no alloys/CG.

 

[Dr Pippy]

And I prefer being expected to make strategic choices and assigning priorities based on opportunity cost, not playing cookie clicker to watch line go up.

I don't think this is relevant to what I actually said.

I do agree that strategic choices/priorities are important; I don't enjoy having to do as much of this on the micro level as the old production-per-building model required.

But basically no other strategic ressource gain was adjusted to the amount you need in 4.0 and are still stuck in 3.14 mode.

Yes, this one of the big balance issues with the status quo.

Buffing the dimensional replicator building doesn't solve this issue as it just further pushes players to mandatory cosmogenisis which is very boring.

This probably needs its own thread, but in my experience the power spike from CG isn't primarily the FE buildings. It's the ships, which are very expensive, but at least twice as good per naval cap.

People who like the new easiness of stratetig ressource gathering probably didn't play anything outside of their 0815 standard UNE playthrough. That is totally fine but please have a look outside of the box to see some underlying problems with the new system.

There are obviously problems with the new system. There were also problems with the old system; these had a larger negative impact on my enjoyment of the game.
But obviously the new system is going to need significant adjustments at some point.

I'd like to keep roughly the current level of production, but to decouple strategic resources from alloys/CG: the strategic choice should be at the level of "do I want this planet for alloys or refineries?" rather than "do I want to put a refinery in this building slot" which really is far too micro to be an interesting strategic choice. There are lots of ways to do this; one would be to have a refinery specialization for each of the basic resource districts that converts production from the basic resource to one of the strategic resources.

And then the other ways to get strategic resources need to either be brought into line with current production levels, or maybe some of them are redundant and can be removed. (Do we really need six techs related to strategic resource production?)

 

[Red Death]

And then the other ways to get strategic resources need to either be brought into line with current production levels, or maybe some of them are redundant and can be removed. (Do we really need six techs related to strategic resource production?)

By six, you mean the 3 for production plus the 3 for extraction? If the actual extraction of rare resources from the environment (whether through space deposits or planetary deposits) are removed, you might as well delete those rare resources from the game, because the system serves no purpose anymore. There's no point in having another step of processing minerals into something that then gets used for production and upkeep, we already have Alloys and Consumer Goods.

Frankly, you can tell, because we're currently already in the "pointless system" scenario, with how easy it is to produce them and how weak extraction is.

 

[Dr Pippy]

By six, you mean the 3 for production plus the 3 for extraction?

Yep!

If the actual extraction of rare resources from the environment (whether through space deposits or planetary deposits) are removed, you might as well delete those rare resources from the game, because the system serves no purpose anymore. There's no point in having another step of processing minerals into something that then gets used for production and upkeep, we already have Alloys and Consumer Goods.

Frankly, you can tell, because we're currently already in the "pointless system" scenario, with how easy it is to produce them and how weak extraction is.

I don't think there has been any point since the strategic resources became strategic instead of rare ("terraforming gases" -> "exotic gases") where deposits were numerous enough to provide a consistent enough source of strategic resources to support a late-game economy. A deposit might have gotten you 1-2 buildings worth of resources, but you might only have a couple of these or you might not have any at all. Synthesis rather than extraction has always been the dominant method to produce strategic resources.

I think the purpose of the system is to provide another technological and economic gate as you're transitioning to an advanced economy: all of the upgraded buildings and higher-tier weapons require strategic resources. YMMV as to whether this additional gate is necessary or useful (I don't have strong feelings one way or the other), but it seems to be a pretty clear design decision given the prevalence of strategic upkeep, etc.

 

[DrFranknfurter]

Quickly loading up a save in 2275:

One Crystal space deposit in 50 systems. With a fully upgraded Arc Furnace it gives: 3.33 Rare crystals (and 111 alloys), using that as a base of 1x

One Alloy planet:
The (incomplete) forge world itself produces 4.48x the alloys of the Arc Furnace System.
Synthetic Crystal Plant is 36x as much crystal
Ancient Refinery adds another 32x
Basic Alloy Foundry adds 2.7x
Dimensional Replicator adds 1.2x
Nanite Transmuter adds 0.8x

I have more excess rare resources (without building the ancient refinery, and after selling 60+ monthly) than I have excess food from taxing 3 subjects.

The rare resource economy is not even half implemented yet. I don't know what it will look like when it's done but it isn't this. Someone needs to sit down with a spreadsheet and decide how the economy should function at each Tier of Technology.