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Do All Paradox Games Have Flawed AIs?

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UberFelix

UberFelix

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Dec 9, 2005
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OK, before I start slinging mud, let me say I'm a fan of the Paradox games.
I'm very impressed with the research and ideas that go into the games.
That being said are there any paradox games that have AI's that are ready from the start?

I've played HOI2, HOI3, and Rome.
None of these games have AIs that I found to be rational. I've had to do tons of modding to make the game competitive.
e.g.
HOI2: A Germany that is still at peace in 1944? The USSR crushes the Finns as if they were a sucky army? For the Finns, I modded the heck out of them. Tanks were useless in the Artic Circle but not so in this game. I had to help the Finns by making all their starting units 1939 mountaineering units. mod their technology priorities, and mod the artic terrain to swamps and hills to limit the effect of Soviet Armor.

HOI3 = What a beautiful map this game has. <whistles>
Yep, the map looks very good.

Rome = Playing as Tylis, I think being invaded by 5 different countries including Egypt is a bit silly especially since Egypt is in a fight for its life in Africa. This would be like Hitler ordering an invasion of the Bahamas in 1944.

Like I said I admire paradox games but is there a single game that is ready to play out of the box?
 
I don't think a perfect AI exists anywhere in the world. Even the best designed, with unspeakably huge budgets and programming team, chess playing AIs have difficulties beating Russian grand masters. And that's without having to trace supply lines and deciding which pawns to upgrade or if the Bishops need to return to port for repairs...or which political reforms the King needs to enact so the Knights don't rebel.

The sheer scope of Paradox games make AI flaws impossible to avoid.
 
Have you seen any computer game that has an AI that can compete with a human? Developing intelligent computers is actually one of the biggest research topics of our time.
 
Yes, they're flawed, and honestly they probably are even worse than most games. But Paradox has a particularly difficult task because for most games, there's a clear objective for the A.I.: you design it to aim for world conquest, because that's what 99% of strategy games are about. Paradox is trying in part to simulate historical processes and most historical rulers didn't have perfect knowledge of the "game system", nor was world conquest necessarily their objective.

I don't think I've ever actually seen a complex strategy game with an A.I. that was truly competitive with a good human player without any sort of cheating. They can be competitive in click-fest type games, but my feeling is that it's their ability to do more things at the same time than a human can rather than better strategic planning that enables them to succeed.

Yes, they can be very good at chess, but chess is much more amenable to a computer's strengths because it can examine the outcomes of all possible choices by brute force.
 
That is a bit of a strawman since I never said I expected a "perfect" AI.
Like I said, I like paradox games and I'd like to buy another...if I don't need to mod the ai.
Right now mow modding "to do" list is longer than I want.
I'm looking for a Paradox game to buy where the game has no fatal flaws (somewhat realistic).

I'm just looking to avoid some fatal flaws in the games AI. Let me give some examples.
1. In HOI2, Finland is pathetic while in real life Finland survived 3 big Soviet offenses and they never fell.
To me this is a fatal flaw.
2. In Rome, as Tylis I have 5 different countries declaring war on me but my Navy keeps kicking their ass.
To me a rational ai would say, "Well, I have no navy and I have no chance of invading him. And he is blockading my ports so perhaps it is time for a white peace and find an easier target."
 
UberFelix said:
That is a bit of a strawman since I never said I expected a "perfect" AI.
Like I said, I like paradox games and I'd like to buy another...if I don't need to mod the ai.
Right now mow modding "to do" list is longer than I want.
I'm looking for a Paradox game to buy where the game has no fatal flaws (somewhat realistic).

I'm just looking to avoid some fatal flaws in the games AI. Let me give some examples.
1. In HOI2, Finland is pathetic while in real life Finland survived 3 big Soviet offenses and they never fell.
To me this is a fatal flaw.
Click to expand...

Well essentialy Finland lost the Winter War and WWII.

But that they gave the Soviet Union such a hard time is almost impossible to simulate in a game (it had more to do with Soviet incompetence then Finnish brilliance). Since you will then have to learn the Soviet AI to be imcompetent against Finland but competent against Japan and Germany. Isn't that fact that the Soviet AI does better then the real Soviets proof that the AI is pretty good.

Saying in this specific case that the AI is flawed isn't correct. Since I rather have a good Soviet AI then a good Finnish AI.
 
Last edited:
Veldmaarschalk said:
Well essentialy Finland lost the Winter War and WWII.

But that they gave the Soviet Union such a hard time is almost impossible to simulate in a game (it had more to do with Soviet incompetence then Finnish brilliance). Since you will then have to learn the Soviet AI to be imcompetent against Finland but competent against Japan and Germany. Isn't that fact that the Soviet AI does better then the real Soviets proof that the AI is pretty good.

Saying in this specific case that the AI is flawed isn't correct. Since I rather have a good Soviet AI then a good Finnish AI.
Click to expand...

Maybe one could have a decision for the soviets saying "abandone the two officer doctrine" and before you enact it the needed amount of officer of each brigade would be 100% higher and the time needed for a unit to move would be longer
 
In HOI2 I've seen Brazil invade Cyprus and Pacific islands many times.
Peru loves to invade random undefended Japanese islands.
And there are other examples of strategic nonsense in this game.
I'm not asking for a perfect AI, just an ai that does not make this silly decisions...
 
UberFelix said:
In HOI2 I've seen Brazil invade Cyprus and Pacific islands many times.
Peru loves to invade random undefended Japanese islands.
And there are other examples of strategic nonsense in this game.
I'm not asking for a perfect AI, just an ai that does not make this silly decisions...
Click to expand...
Atleast they try to invade something and not remain idle in their country, playing poker, wait for the enemy to come to them.
 
Paradox France (AGEOD) games have great AI. Especially RoP. Very especially RoP. It will beat you. Several times. The AI of AACW is supposedly very good too (I don't have it), and the AI of Birth of America would be good if it took "winter" a bit more seriously.
 
I am pretty happy with Paradox game's AI. It's really good considering how vastly complicated the games are.

Go outside tonight and look up at the sky and think about the billions upon billions of galaxies out there each with billions upon billions of star systems hosting a number of planets. Now think that's about how many variables and possible conditions an AI programmer for a Paradox game needs to consider. :)
 
UberFelix said:
I've modded Finland so they put up a decent fight that matches up historically.
If I can do it, Paradox can do it.
Click to expand...

Maybe you and I have a different understanding about what modding the AI is, but the things you have modded have nothing to do with modding the AI from my perspective.

For the Finns, I modded the heck out of them. Tanks were useless in the Artic Circle but not so in this game. I had to help the Finns by making all their starting units 1939 mountaineering units. mod their technology priorities, and mod the artic terrain to swamps and hills to limit the effect of Soviet Armor.
Click to expand...
 
Trolling thread gets locked.

Veldmaarschalk has a good explanation why this is a particularly funny troll.
 
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