That's interesting. So the Westerosi would ironically take a more modern perspective to last names.
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That's interesting. So the Westerosi would ironically take a more modern perspective to last names.
Robert's seizure of the throne causing instability has less to do with him not being a Targaryen and more to do with him ruining the realm. Granted, it was more subtle than the Mad King, but did you see the debt he racked up by the end of his reign? As for Roose Bolton, he's cool (and discreet) enough not to bother with the murmurings of the Stark loyalists. In fact, I'm expecting him to flay Wyman Manderly at one point just to prove that he can get away with anything. The North just have to suck it and acknowledge that the Starks are gone.
Umm yeah, Roose is not long for this world.
Robert's overthrow did cause instability because it ruined the balance of power. Before, the seven LPs were balanced against each other by the throne. But when Robert seized it, the Baratheons and later the Lannisters became OP because they had an LP title AND the throne.
Reminds me of my current Aegon VI/Dany playthrough. Aegon has the throne, while Dany is LP of BOTH Stormlands and the Reach (Euron busted Mace's ass, and the title got destroyed. Well, at least Mace got back the High Lordship of Highgarden eventually.)
The Westerlands were already OP in the early days of the Mad King. As Hand, Tywin "ruled the Seven Kingdoms". The only reason I can think of why he didn't seize the throne was because he had no claim. By marrying Cersei to Robert, he had that claim. If not for his single weakness regarding Tyrion, the Lannisters owned. Full stop.
The Westerlands were already OP in the early days of the Mad King. As Hand, Tywin "ruled the Seven Kingdoms". The only reason I can think of why he didn't seize the throne was because he had no claim. By marrying Cersei to Robert, he had that claim. If not for his single weakness regarding Tyrion, the Lannisters owned. Full stop.
"It's far better to rule from behind the scenes, the reward is nearly as great and the risk is far less." - Londo Mollari
I love the suggestions. Seems way better than how it is handled now, as while it's kind of fun (and buggy, but that's expected at this point) it's also very clumsy.
Tywin has the ambition, but I suspect that it was because of his lack of desirable heirs that he did not take the throne personally.
He also had no claim and was diplomatically isolated in Robert's Rebellion. Neither Robert's side nor the Targ loyalists would have accepted him.
I don't think he needs or wants the actual throne to confirm his power. He knows that he's the one really in charge and seems comfortable with it. And with his grandkids on the throne and Robert gone he feels like the Lannisters basically have the throne anyway, even if they are Baratheon in name (but jokes on him because they really are Lannisters).
True. It's rather easy to forget that he's just as late as Walder Frey in the Rebellion.
Bastards borne out of incest by twins. Not even the Targaryens went that far.
Bastards borne out of incest by twins. Not even the Targaryens went that far.
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Daena and The Unworthy had different fathers (The Dragonbane and Viserys II). Their fathers were brothers.
Still rather incestuous, at least by most modern standards. First cousins after all
Well, Tywin and Joanna may be first cousins as well, but no one in the Seven Kingdoms had anything bad to say about it.
First cousins marrying is not unusual for the Middle Ages, as it does prevent land from being inherited out of the family. However, do it long enough, and you get someone like Carlos II of Spain.
First cousins marrying is not unusual for the Middle Ages, as it does prevent land from being inherited out of the family. However, do it long enough, and you get someone like Carlos II of Spain.
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True. CK2 is vastly more concerned with the inviolate sacredness of one's dynastic surname, than even in real life, or as it were, in fiction.
For example, look at how the British Royal family went to some lengths in the 19th century to trace their lineage back to Alfred the Great...and that was pretty darn tenuous.
Otherwise, it's nice to see we're all in agreement that the current incarnation of the Dothraki, even accounting for them being a WIP, has one or two fundamental design flaws that should be reworked. Such as not going with a vision in mind for them that requires +30 stewardship.
I disagree. Even tough i also believe that dynasty are a bit more fluid than in real life. They do not work like you've stated at all. The best exemple is what happened after Aegon conquest. 3 dynasty died out: Gardener, Hoare and Durrendon and no successor took the name.
Even more Orys took everything of the Durrendon but the name wich for me tell a lot about how people in Westeros feel about "switching" dynasty. If Orys baratheon, a bastard made a new dynasty on the ash of the Durrendon then it's not that easy for matrilineale line to take the name. I know there are exemple of this in Westeros but I believe that that's a very rare event and even more rare the more "prestigious" are the dynasties be it the one that died out or the one of the claimant.
The exemple that you gave: Ramsay Bolton, I do not believe one instant that his descendent will ever change their dyanasty for three reasons:
1- Ramsay is very proud of his own dynasty.
2- there are other better claimant of the Stark name: The Karstark a patrilineal cadet line of the Stark, and Sansa who is the "head" of the dynasty since the "death" of the males children of Ned.
3- For what I know Ramsay is the last heir of the Bolton name. I don't see him or is father let their legacy die so the Stark rise frome ash again even if there are Bolton.
I believe for this to happen a few prequisite are needed:
- the claimant need to have a blood connection to the desired dynasty even a matrilineal one.
- There are no better claimant (patrilineal descendant; older matrilineal branch)
- the claimant want to forsake his own dynasty for an another one (wich i take like complete assimilation of an immigree in another country. He doesn't change the name he become everything the dynasty stand for. The Baratheon if they took the Durendon name)
- Royal benediction and maybe also vassal benediction.
So not an easy task, the only dynasty that could meet those condition for me as of now are the Targaryen if Aegon is indeed a fraud then Daenaerys children have a high chance to keep the dynasty name. That is if their father line is not too prestigious (Drogo anyone?).
Also the dynasties are not that old. Only the Starks, Lannisters and Arryn are very old (2000+)and for what i remember the three of them had at least the original patrilienal line dies one way or another.
The others earned their title with Aegon conquest so only 300 years old except the Martells but they have a very particular rule of succession ^^ .
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I wouldn't be too sure. The Gulltown Arryns are more merchant than lord, but there are plenty of them around if the books have anything to say about it. There are even a few minor "knightly" Arryn houses. The problem is that they are no longer amongst the Lords, and most of them are farther removed from the main house of Arryn than the Karstarks are from House Stark by the way you hear of it from Petyr.
The Hoare line died due to very unusual circumstances (total party kill involving dragons) and the males were all gathered at one location (Harrenhal).
Don't forget Timett son of Timett, Red Hand of the Burned Men, legitimate son of Jon Arryn's sister who was carried away by the Burned Men, rightful heir to the Vale.
Don't forget Timett son of Timett, Red Hand of the Burned Men, legitimate son of Jon Arryn's sister who was carried away by the Burned Men, rightful heir to the Vale.
Tyrion did promise them the Vale all the way back in the beginning...
Wouldn't that be cool if that came true? Especially since there's no way in hell that Littlefinfer isn't gonna crash and burn spectacularly before the end.