Drag Nach Osten!

[Earl Uhtred]

If assimilation is in then great but I hope it's implemented carefully. We don't want, frx, Italy turning German. I suppose assimilation could proceed extra fast in areas where the locals follow any non-Christian religion a la the Baltic and the Spanish Reconquista.

 

[unmerged(12435)]

If assimilation is in then great but I hope it's implemented carefully. We don't want, frx, Italy turning German. I suppose assimilation could proceed extra fast in areas where the locals follow any non-Christian religion a la the Baltic and the Spanish Reconquista.

Well, at least during the reconquista it was not only assimilation - important factor was the expulsion of moors and jews. This caused,that important minorities simply disappeared. I dont know if this feature will be implemented?

But i am not sure if assimilation will be such a important issue in that era. As i understand, cultures/nationalities in Paradox games are tied mostly to todays nationalities/cultures or languages. Not to mention, that in fact in the era of CK none of current languages existed..neither did any of the modern nationalities. There were no french,english,russian of italian. Even when the ruler was from different "nationality" that inhabitants of his relam, it did not authomatically mean problems or revolts - Plantagenets rulin England (and Wales) were french, bohemian kings were german, when german knights conquered baltic regions, they had nothing in common with local population.When normans ruled sicily it also did not cause ani major revolts,right? Jews expulsed from Spain had quite succesfull living in musulman world.
Therefore i think that cultural penalty (as it was in EU2 or Vic) would not be very good. And if there is no penalty, also the assimilation would not be so important,right?
:wacko:

 

[Nikolai II]

Maybe armies raised from 'same'-cultured counties are slightly better (loyalty, morale?) but I can agree that the differences shouldn't be huge.

Religion is a more important matter than language/culture, but religious conversion should maybe be limited to counties having 'state-culture', so you'd have to culturally convert them before they could be religiously assimilated.
Pagans would then not loose culture faster than others, but would be able to change religion without being of 'right' culture.

 

[unmerged(12435)]

Maybe armies raised from 'same'-cultured counties are slightly better (loyalty, morale?) but I can agree that the differences shouldn't be huge.

Religion is a more important matter than language/culture, but religious conversion should maybe be limited to counties having 'state-culture', so you'd have to culturally convert them before they could be religiously assimilated.
Pagans would then not loose culture faster than others, but would be able to change religion without being of 'right' culture.

To the conversion - even if it is not part of CK: when Turks conquered balkans, they converted to islam many people who did not belong to their culture,race,language group - only by force. Same happen in baltic region.

Actually,now that i have no ideas how to put all this in the game terms..i leave this believing that Paradox will manage to do it right

 

[Spinalcurve]

To the conversion - even if it is not part of CK: when Turks conquered balkans, they converted to islam many people who did not belong to their culture,race,language group - only by force. Same happen in baltic region.

Actually many slavics did convert because they should be more accepted in the new society of Turks and they had a lot easier to live.
But this have nothing with Drag nach osten so end of story

 

[Nikolai II]

To the conversion - even if it is not part of CK: when Turks conquered balkans, they converted to islam many people who did not belong to their culture,race,language group - only by force. Same happen in baltic region.

Conversion only counts if it 'sticks'

But baltics might be a point - if not for the other thing hinted at; the possibility that if you get too many provinces of a specific 'other' culture (compared to your 'own' culture) then that 'other' culture will start assimiliating you

But hopefully we will get a preliminary release date within a few months - and hopefully a date before summer, so we can see for ourselves some day

 

[unmerged(24685)]

Also what of the various Slavic tribes like the Pommeranians, the Prussians, the Sorbs ...

This is link to the map of Baltic tribs...

http://www.boomspeed.com/siautaslt/baltai1.jpg

1-11 are Prussian tribes...

1 – Pamedė
2 – Kulmas
3 – Pagudė
4 – Liubavas
5 – Varmė
6 – Sasna
7 – Notanga
8 – Barta
9 – Galinda
10 – Semba
11 – Nadruva
12a – Sūduva
12b – Dainava
12c – Jotva
13 – Skalva
14 – Pilsotas
15 – Karšuva
16 – Valsčiai
17 – Lietuva
18 – Nalšia
19 – Mėguva
20 – Keklys
21 – Knituva
22 – Šiauliai
23 – Upytė
24 – Deltuva
25 – Sėla
26 – Duvzarė
27 – Piemarė
28 – Bandava
29 – Ventava
30a – Vanema
30b – land between Skrunda and Žiemgala
31 – Duobė
32 – Žagarė
33 – Silenė
34 – Tervetė
35 – Sparnenė
36 – Duobelė
37 – Upmalė
38 – Kuoknesė
39 – Jersika
40 – Idumėja
41 – Talava
42 – Atzelė

@peace

 

[Vytis]

I suppose assimilation could proceed extra fast in areas where the locals follow any non-Christian religion a la the Baltic and the Spanish Reconquista.

Why would Baltics be assimilated faster than Italy ? It took centuries to assimilate prussians (numbers rapidly declined closer to XVIII-XIX cent. AD) Latvians and estonians were never successfully assimilated even though those lands were held for centuries by germans/swedish [and later russians].
So cultural assimilation chance should be really negligible.

...they converted to islam many people who did not belong to their culture,race,language group - only by force. Same happen in baltic region

Prussians, latvians and estonians= yes. [However since] Samogitians/Lithuanians were never conquered by christians they couln't have been converted by force. It was done by Lith. rulers (more than once and usually for political reasons).

This is link to the map of Baltic tribs...

Maybe this should be a new thread.
I'd like to see what provinces devs or betas currently have for the Baltics. Personally I think it would be reasonable to have the following:[using Siautas provided map]

Prusija(Prussia) 1-11
Jotvinga 12abc
Skalva 13
Kursas 14+19+26-30ab
Zemaitija(Samogitia) 15+20+21+22
Sela 25
Upyte 16+23
Aukstaitija 17+18+24
Ziemgala 31-37
Vidzeme? 38-42

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Why would Baltics be assimilated faster than Italy ? It took centuries to assimilate prussians (numbers rapidly declined closer to XVIII-XIX cent. AD) Latvians and estonians were never successfully assimilated even though those lands were held for centuries by germans/swedish [and later russians].
So cultural assimilation chance should be really negligible.

Soz - I was careless - meant Pomerania etc, south coast of the Baltic sea but not Balt of course.

 

[unmerged(24213)]

Not very many people went away in the Reconquista. Jews and Moors did stay for some hundred years. They were not expelled until after CK time.

But, the colonization ("Drang nach Osten") was a very important historical event in CK time. All the land from Elbe to Weichsel, Sudeten, Zips, Siebenbuergen, and much more. Some of it empty before, some of it Slavic. After almost all German. Further eastward just minorities.

 

[Martinus]

Well, since cultural assimiliation is supposed to be in it should be enough that you as german conquer a province and then keep it around for long enough to change it's culture. That would remove slavs and replace them with germans, if the slavs are conquered.

Most of the Drang Nach Osten was not a product of conquest, but migration, however. The majority of burghers in early medieval Polish cities for example were of German origin, and the Polish rulers actively encouraged that immigration with special settlement privileges and whatnot. While such settlements happened elsewhere, no doubt, the sheer massiveness of the migration of Germans into Eastern Europe (it was not confined to Poland - for example Siebenburgen in Transylvania was colonised almost entirely by German Saxonians) had no parallel in the game era.

Also, that fact had very important political consequences for the rulers involved. Wladyslaw II who unified Poland had to deal with a big rebellion in his capital Krakow, that erupted due to the Germans' support for the Bohemian dynasty.

Maybe it could be simulated by events, where you, playing rulers of the affected areas can choose to encourage the settlement (thus, perhaps changing the culture of some provinces to German and increasing the populace).

 

[unmerged(12680)]

Maybe armies raised from 'same'-cultured counties are slightly better (loyalty, morale?) but I can agree that the differences shouldn't be huge.

Religion is a more important matter than language/culture, but religious conversion should maybe be limited to counties having 'state-culture', so you'd have to culturally convert them before they could be religiously assimilated.
Pagans would then not loose culture faster than others, but would be able to change religion without being of 'right' culture.

I agree that you should be able to field armies of different cultures with a minimal or no penalty. As we have no 19th century separatism or nationalism to worry about the game should have French troops fighting with the English against the French king, and bedouins employed by the crusader states against other crusaders... Lovely...