Dunkirk Map

[Lykanion]

I wasn't watching over the shoulder of each and every patrol or column there, so I can't make such a claim. Surely there have been such instances, but there wasn't such an official policy of terror in Algeria than in Cameroon.

Yes, well, fair enough. I wouldn't want to hold you to isolated, individual acts. I'll just add some quotes:

[T]he French government also initiated a program of concentrating large segments of the rural population, including whole villages, in camps under military supervision [...] more than 2 million Algerians were removed from their villages, mostly in the mountainous areas, and resettled in the plains. [...]

The deliberate French policy of resettlement of rural populations gathered more than 2 million villagers in Frenchbuilt fortified settlements under a regroupement program.

Two million Algerians were forced into camps by the end of 1959, and under direct military surveillance.

Quotes/References:
* Martin Evans: Algeria: France’s undeclared War.
* Helen Chapan Metz, ed. Algeria: A Country Study

 

[Rojan]

Yes, well, fair enough. I wouldn't want to hold you to isolated, individual acts. I'll just add some quotes:







Quotes/References:
* Martin Evans: Algeria: France’s undeclared War.
* Helen Chapan Metz, ed. Algeria: A Country Study

In my limited knowledge of the French and their armed conflicts abroad these sorts of things happen for the security and welfare of the military. I'm sure you know that but is this bad in your eyes morally, or are you arguing it's tactical or strategic effects?

 

[Lykanion]

but is this bad in your eyes morally, or are you arguing it's tactical or strategic effects?

Neither. My point is simply that these things _did_, in fact, happen.
EDIT: And, to make this clear, did not only happen small scale, randomly in a "such things happen when people are fighting" sense, but large scale operations, commanded and/or approved by higher-ups, forming an integral part of the french counter-insurgance strategy. Concerning the relocations, for example, my quotes above indicate the relocation of two million people. Not the act of a single platoon or column, but classified by my sources as a government initiative and deliberate policy.

On a broader scale, I simply want to mention that it wasn't all the fluffy 'winning civilians'.

 

[Sigwald]

And no one is denying that they _did_, in fact, happened.

Madmat is just explaining to you that it's a perfectly normal thing to happen in a context where you send large groups of people killing eachother, especially with their families nearby.

 

[Lykanion]

And no one is denying that they _did_, in fact, happened.

Edited my post above to give a better idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[Sigwald]

Neither. My point is simply that these things _did_, in fact, happen.
EDIT: And, to make this clear, did not only happen small scale, randomly in a "such things happen when people are fighting" sense, but large scale operations, commanded and/or approved by higher-ups, forming an integral part of the french counter-insurgance strategy. Concerning the relocations, for example, my quotes above indicate the relocation of two million people. Not the act of a single platoon or column, but classified by my sources as a government initiative and deliberate policy.

On a broader scale, I simply want to mention that it wasn't all the fluffy 'winning civilians'.

Well, I... understand your point, but that still doesn't change my mind. For instance, the US are also torturing on a large scale while being backed up by their superiors in a (and i'm putting big quotes here) """"counter-insurgency"""" context. I say the US because it's our current and most obvious example, but there is certainly many more I'm not aware of. Not that I don't find that awful.

Now, to be clear, my opinion on the topic is the following : I think it's impossible to assess on this thread the scale of harm done to the algerian population through torture and relocations. I mean, is it worse to displace 2 millions people as the french in Algeria did or execute whole villages as the nazis did in France ? Do we count the harkis on the french slate or the algerian one ? And in the end, what is the point to weigh those things if it isn't political leverage ? Relations between France and Algeria are... complicated even nowadays to say the least, and I'm not even talking about the topic of Chinese/French/US/English influence in Africa which drive those political questions. So my opinion is that we can't come to a meaningful conversation on such a delicate subject, though I respect your opinion.

Finally, the point here was to know if France had a somehow good or bad counter insurgency method. You came to the thread to remind us of war crimes of France during the Algerian War of Independance. That's all fine and well, but no one is denying they happened, but still you seem to try to show Madmat as a war crimes' denier :

While I have, of course, no information about your personal involvement, I take it that "we" in this context refers to the french military, government etc. in general. So, as far as I understand your post, you're saying that under French rule in Algiera no displacement of population took place (at least not with involvement and/or responsiblity of french military, government etc.), is that correct, or am I misinterpreting you?

While some of your posts are interesting, trying to win an argument you are the only one participating in is quite... displeasant to read.

Then again, it's just my opinion on those things...