Dynastic Unions and Cadet Branches

[Radiohead]

I'm wondering if there will be a system of Dynastic Unions implemented in the game.

I would envision this as an in-game decision to delegate the succession of your kingdom, instead of to a distant cousin, to a daughter and her husband. This decision would play out in the manner of Habsburg => Habsburg-Lorraine dynastic union to create a cadet branch of the family. The daughter's husband would then receive a hyphenated name and be the founder of the new family (now the playable line of characters once your current king dies), with the distant cousins as "rival claimants" with rightful claims on your land and remain within the line of succession (but outside the playable family-as you now have a new playable family).

This would allow you to keep titles in the main line of descent from past kings, and give you an option where your distant cousins wouldn't necessarily be the ones to inherit, as well as creating some interesting family dynamic and adding flavour to the game.

Anyone else think this is a good/workable idea?

 

[Jak9090]

Awsome idea, I was hoping something like this would be suggested.

 

[LordofSaxony]

I'm wondering if there will be a system of Dynastic Unions implemented in the game.

I would envision this as an in-game decision to delegate the succession of your kingdom, instead of to a distant cousin, to a daughter and her husband. This decision would play out in the manner of Habsburg => Habsburg-Lorraine dynastic union to create a cadet branch of the family. The daughter's husband would then receive a hyphenated name and be the founder of the new family (now the playable line of characters once your current king dies), with the distant cousins as "rival claimants" with rightful claims on your land and remain within the line of succession (but outside the playable family-as you now have a new playable family).

This would allow you to keep titles in the main line of descent from past kings, and give you an option where your distant cousins wouldn't necessarily be the ones to inherit, as well as creating some interesting family dynamic and adding flavour to the game.

Anyone else think this is a good/workable idea?

So what happens if you become.. Richard Habsburg-Lorraine, and your guy has a daughter named Alice, she would be Alice Habsburg-Lorraine, right? Then, what happens if the situation arises where you need to do it again, would that be Habsburg-Lorraine-Leon or something? So Francis Habsburg-Lorraine-Leon? Or does the front part drop off at that point?

 

[Radiohead]

So what happens if you become.. Richard Habsburg-Lorraine, and your guy has a daughter named Alice, she would be Alice Habsburg-Lorraine, right? Then, what happens if the situation arises where you need to do it again, would that be Habsburg-Lorraine-Leon or something? So Francis Habsburg-Lorraine-Leon? Or does the front part drop off at that point?

Yeah, that would happen, since that's what royals did in reality, there was the house of "Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Lyksborg" and a house of "Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" - just to name two. It could get unweildy and I don't see why they couldn't add an option that you didn't have to take all the names of the previous title holders, but there should be an option to keep them all I would think.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

This didn't really happen much during the CK time period, though. A family died out and was replaced by another related one.

The only notable one I can think of was the senior branch of the Italian D'Este family that became known as the Junior House of Welf in Germany.

 

[.Spartan]

I too would love to see such a thing modeled in the game. I would love to see it after three or four generations of children and marriages to various factions over the decades.

 

[Yodel]

This didn't really happen much during the CK time period, though. A family died out and was replaced by another related one.

agree. claims on titles and lands could only pass onto male heirs. in case the paternal lineage of a dynasty died out the titles passed onto others but not the maternal lineage.

imho ck1 was most historical with the options of succession.

 

[Aubrey]

This didn't really happen much during the CK time period, though. A family died out and was replaced by another related one.

The only notable one I can think of was the senior branch of the Italian D'Este family that became known as the Junior House of Welf in Germany.

Good point here - but I think the dynastic union idea could be implemented as a tech innovation (and a relatively high level one). That would prevent it from really coming into play until late-game, and even then only for larger or more successful realms...

 

[A_Dane]

Personally, I'd just like for minor sons to be able to "change" their last name, according to whatever duchy they rule. I'd mostly like this feature in game, to represent those "lesser" lines of the royal family, which still came to play a part.
(e.g the "valois", "lancaster", "York" branches of different royal dynasties).

 

[Duckett]

When going through the previous rulers in your dynasty in CK, I noticed the surnames would change sometimes and not just simple things like Odinson changing to Snorrison or whatever, but completely different surnames, how did this happen in history? I've always wondered this when I've been playing. Could it be possible to model future changes in surnames in CKII?

 

[RedRooster81]

On Surnames

What I think mattered more than a surname in the timeframe was belonging to a specific "house," which I think is what is trying to be modeled by fixed dynastic names in CK1. Descent and inheritance except in strictly "salic law" situations was bilateral and had a lot to do with who had the best claim backed up by the biggest army. If your mother had the more prestigious family, then you would lean on that. Medieval Scotland for instance, this was the case in the late 13th century, with many different claimants each with local and often foreign supporters. Yes, wars of succession, more common than in EU3 and at all tiers of the hierarchy, with arbiters like the king in the case of dukes or counts, or the Pope or Holy Roman Emperor.

 

[unmerged(207738)]

Actually, the children of a REIGNING King/Emperor didn't have last names. However, the grandchildren, however, did. A good example would be Charles,Comte d'artois. His children we "insert name"d' Artois.

 

[Jak9090]

I think it would be cool because that way your family could split off into factions so that instead of sitting around for years, or warring across europe ahistorically, you would have to deal with consolidating power within your kingdom or, watch as your ruler sinks into madness and various factions of the family make claims to be rightful heirs of the throne, I think it could make for some great and flavourful gameplay.

 

[Andrzej I]

This didn't really happen much during the CK time period, though. A family died out and was replaced by another related one.

The only notable one I can think of was the senior branch of the Italian D'Este family that became known as the Junior House of Welf in Germany.

Agreed. Dynastic unions weren't too frequent in the CK era. Cadet branches, though, are possible. It might be nice if a branch gets passed over for ruling after a certain amount of generations gets their surname changed. As mentioned above, that's how the Valois and so forth got their names, I think.

 

[unmerged(40328)]

This didn't really happen much during the CK time period, though. A family died out and was replaced by another related one.

The only notable one I can think of was the senior branch of the Italian D'Este family that became known as the Junior House of Welf in Germany.

Agreed. Dynastic unions weren't too frequent in the CK era. Cadet branches, though, are possible. It might be nice if a branch gets passed over for ruling after a certain amount of generations gets their surname changed. As mentioned above, that's how the Valois and so forth got their names, I think.

On a related note, though, I still think it'd be nice to have reigning women that don't all but end your game (technically their kids are a different house/dynasty). CK1 didn't account for it, though I can only speculate why (they thought it too uncommon? Too much of a headache to program?).

The vast majority of property was inherited by men, sure. However, even in those times, women sometimes ruled in their own right prior to 1453. Some examples: Byzantium - Zoe, Irene, and three Theodoras. Scandinavia - Margaret I (kinda important, there, right?). Italy - a bunch, including Matilda of Canossa. Iberia - About 8 queens regnant. Poland - Hedwig. Hungary - Mary. England - Debateably Empress Matilda. Other - Eleanor of Aquitaine.

In fact, the kings of France and (I think) the Hapsburgs relied at times on male primogeniture, and not just semisalic primogeniture, to expand their demesnes via marriage. And hey, you could even include events that make it difficult or just plain dangerous for a woman to inherit (see what happened to Empress Matilda for an example). Could be lots of fun.

If the cadet suggestion becomes a feature, I'd recommend keeping the surname of all characters in a cadet branch the same on their character pages to reduce that cluttering effect (so, for example, instead of Joseph Hapsburg-Lorraine appearing thusly, he'd be Joseph Hapsburg on his character screen). You could then relegate the full house name to the proper ledger/history display.

 

[A_Dane]

Actually, Margaret (Margrethe), Didn't inherit anything, she wasn't even crowned queen. What she did however, was quite smart, inserting her son on the throne and ruled from behind the scene. When he died prematurely, she found her sisters grandson (Might be further down, don't remember the exact relation anymore), and placed him on the throne, he did more or less take over at the end though...

 

[Radiohead]

Agreed. Dynastic unions weren't too frequent in the CK era. Cadet branches, though, are possible. It might be nice if a branch gets passed over for ruling after a certain amount of generations gets their surname changed. As mentioned above, that's how the Valois and so forth got their names, I think.

I have to agree that dynastic unions were infrequent, but you should also consider that even with having this option unions will be quite infrequent as well - as they're only allowed when all you have is daughters. How many of your CK1 games have you had a lot of trouble producing an heir from your primary character? Not too much usually.

But when it does happen, this gives you a chance to make it a little more interesting than moving on to one of your character's brothers or cousins.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Anyone heard about Komnenodoukas, Komnenodoukas Palaiologos, Komnenodoukas Angelos or something like that?

 

[Keanon]

Margeret inherited Norway and was queen there, was made regent in Denmark and was crowned queen in Sweden later. Denmark was the only country that didn't by law accept women. Atleast that what I have learned through history growing up in Copenhagen

 

[Brian Bóruma]

On a related note, though, I still think it'd be nice to have reigning women that don't all but end your game (technically their kids are a different house/dynasty). CK1 didn't account for it, though I can only speculate why (they thought it too uncommon? Too much of a headache to program?).

The vast majority of property was inherited by men, sure. However, even in those times, women sometimes ruled in their own right prior to 1453. Some examples: Byzantium - Zoe, Irene, and three Theodoras. Scandinavia - Margaret I (kinda important, there, right?). Italy - a bunch, including Matilda of Canossa. Iberia - About 8 queens regnant. Poland - Hedwig. Hungary - Mary. England - Debateably Empress Matilda. Other - Eleanor of Aquitaine.

In fact, the kings of France and (I think) the Hapsburgs relied at times on male primogeniture, and not just semisalic primogeniture, to expand their demesnes via marriage. And hey, you could even include events that make it difficult or just plain dangerous for a woman to inherit (see what happened to Empress Matilda for an example). Could be lots of fun.

If the cadet suggestion becomes a feature, I'd recommend keeping the surname of all characters in a cadet branch the same on their character pages to reduce that cluttering effect (so, for example, instead of Joseph Hapsburg-Lorraine appearing thusly, he'd be Joseph Hapsburg on his character screen). You could then relegate the full house name to the proper ledger/history display.

If you have a queen, marry a fellow dynast so that your kids will be your dynasty. That's what I always did.