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This isn't the place for another Italy discussion. There was a good reason why it didn't happen. Historical existence takes precedence over any fantasy propositions in EEP.
Done.
I put them in a zip file and emailed them to panzer51@hotmail.com. Hope that is correct...
Let me know if you get them.
Except if the nation is Byzantium, in which all common sense flies right out the window. ;-)
They're fun events, for sure, but a resurgent Byzantium is as silly as an early Italy or Germany. More silly, I think. At least the latter two happened. Italy and Germany are a huge stretch, but a resurgent Byzantium is about as likely as aliens flying through your window and giving you an anal probe as you read this note.
Still, having the choice to use the events or not is the key. Too bad that in the EEP the choice only exists for Byzantium and, god forbid, the Welsh!
Max
I agree. I really can't see how the Italy/Germany events are more fantasy than the already included fantasy options...
If I understand Crook correctly, the problem was not with the events, but with the use of more free tags.
But I don't think this should be a problem either, because there are plenty of free tags left to use (20 user defined tags but only 5 or so being used?). I thought Italy already had the ITA tag, and germany could use the unused HRE tag, or is that HEI or something?
I agree with maxpublic, Havard, and Captain Crunch.
(aside, anyone ever see Blazing Saddles, a Mel Brooks movie where at one point a character says, I agree with Stanley Johnson about Ed Johnsons about Bessie Johnsons being right...
)Even if the ITA tag, for example, is non-functional, there seem to be a few tags left up for grabs. And frankly, the unification events seem to be more popular and in demand than another relatively obscure ROTW state in India, Asia, the Americas, or anywhere else. I suspect they would add more to interest and gameplay for a larger proportion of players (though, to be honest, I am not sure I would use them myself).
I don't think I would care to see Italy or Germany formed in 1500, but the events could be dated to occur after 1750, or some other mutually acceptable date. Why not?
I'd propose this argument be deferred to 1.2. Crook gave out end of May as a deadline for 1.1, and I imagine he's part way through getting it put together. Certainly the unified Italy event hadn't been posted at that time, and given that it's a big change people ought to try it out before we throw it in there.
Going OT, I think unified Italy might make more sense in 1500 than in 1750.
Going OT, I think unified Italy might make more sense in 1500 than in 1750.
How many times do I have to say that -- they can be fantasy if they don't require a tag. If they do, they have to wait in line for more historical countries to be included first.
If they're indeed functional ( which I'm very much in doubt), put the files together, test them, and send them to me, I'll put them in 1.2.
As for free tags -- historicity takes precedence over everything else. Let's say I put Italy in as U06. Then 2 months later, running out of tags I'll kick them out. I'd prefer to postpone an inclusion of any fictional countries until we soundly sure that there are still free tags lying around, I'm not going to be rushed into any action before a discussion been held on what historical countries/revolters should be in.
You don't need a free tag for the events to be scripted. If the events have some set of generic requirements they could simply be added to those Italian minors which are deemed to be likely candidates for forming a united Italy (e.g., perhaps Milan but not the Papal States). Your flag wouldn't change and your nation title would still read 'Milan' or whatnot, but who cares?
Well, I'm sure some folks do but I wouldn't. I'd just see this as the confederation of Italy, with Milan at it's head - which is more likely than a unified, nationalistic Italy prior to 1800 anyway.
Max
Well, what's the point of becoming Italy then? To get more CB shields? I don't like that -- adding more CB shields with no good justification. And don't bring that Byzantium thing again, that's a separate project, and I personally don't endorse it.
Crook check your PM box, there's a perfectly historically accurate actual country waiting for you.
And for the rest of you, I'm making an alien invasion scenario (and no, not for the EEP)
And for the rest of you, I'm making an alien invasion scenario (and no, not for the EEP
)
Originally posted by Mad King James
Crook check your PM box, there's a perfectly historically accurate actual country waiting for you.
And for the rest of you, I'm making an alien invasion scenario (and no, not for the EEP
Thanks. BTW, where is my Idar flag????
What's the point of making Byzantium events? Or Welsh events? If you want to talk about CB shields then what on God's green Earth is the Crown of Lotharingia doing in there??? That's pure fantasy, especially the extremity of the events which wouldn't accurately reflect historical reality (no one is going to recognize the claims of a crown 500 years dead).
The point is some people want to unify Italy - because it's a game, and it's fun. Just as Byzantium, and Wales, and Burgundy/Lotharingia are completely bogus but still a kick to mess with.
But I'm about to post an example 'unification of italy' set of events which addresses the CB shield question. That is, you don't get the provinces as core until *after* you conquer them (har har!).
Hey, I've said numerous times that fantasy events should be *harder* than normal events. It's the primary reason I started ripping into the EEP (to make Byzantium harder and less drastic in it's effects).
Max
To be fair about Lotharingia, the request actually happened in real life. And I do hate that event by the way.
But the point is a decent one. There are several events handing out CB shields. I don't like it but there you are. If Italy is done without a new tag and in such a way that the AI hardly ever triggers the event it seems OK to me.
But the point is a decent one. There are several events handing out CB shields. I don't like it but there you are. If Italy is done without a new tag and in such a way that the AI hardly ever triggers the event it seems OK to me.
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The request did occur, but the effects of the request as scripted are out of this world. If Philip had made claims on lost Lotharingia the European powers would've said "Yeah, sure Phil, whatever. Nice paperweight, by the way."
I don't like giving out CB shields either. My Italy events make provinces core after you take and hold them against rebellion (that makes sense to me, given how much a pain in the ass the conquered Italians would've been). Only the final "Irridentia" event distributes shields, on minor provinces, and only because there's a firm historical example of this.
My Greek Empire events do distribute shields, in stages, but that's simply because with neighbors like the ones that Greece has I don't see how a player could ever pull off the events without cheating. Also, unlike the Italians the Greeks weren't at all prone to fractious in-fighting; it's why they made such damnably good subjects and soon controlled administrative functions in whatever empire happened to have them at the time.
Aside from which, even the final united Greece isn't going to be anywhere near as powerful as a final, united Italy.
Max
Just to add my two cents worth, I agree with this position by Crook. We shouldn't add *new* ahistorical states until we are sure that we don't need all of the tags for historical states.
This is why the comparison between a unified Germany (for example) & the Byzantium/Welsh fantasy events is not valid. The Byzantium & Welsh events do not require a new country, merely the use of an existing one. Creating a unified Germany does require a new tag. Hence the factors to be considered when including Byzantium vs. a unified Germany (for example) are different & not comparable. It is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think that stating that a unified Germany should be included because the fantasy Byzantine events were included is an effective argument. Not that I am against a unified Germany being included - just be wary of the obstacles to such an inclusion.