Epics & Romances Scenario Idea

[Jestor]

So I started thinking and I got this idea for a new Mod/Scenario.

What if we took the worlds of some of the great epics and romances (particularly Arthurian) and made a CK scenario based on them?

For example, I'm thinking England could be divided up amongst the Bretons, the Saxons, and the Celts, Arthur obviously being King of the Bretons and maybe some of his knights from the romances such as Erec, Gawain, Parzival, etc, being Dukes and Counts underneath him.

Over in Denmark, we could throw in people like Beowulf, Hrothgar, etc.

I'm not sure about the rest of Europe and Asia, but right now it's just an idea I'm floating out there.

Possibly the Niebilingulied (sp) in Germany? The Song of Roland in France?

I'm open to suggestions and help with this idea.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Crusader Kings was based on the old RPG game 'Pendragon' so its possible. I have an old copy somewhere, where Arthur rules from Hampshire and it has a map of Britain and the rulers for each area....

...ah here we are

Anglia: Duke Hervis of Anglia (Saxon)
Bedegraine (Around Nottingham): Earl Sanam - vassal of Pendragon
Brun (between Warwick and the Fens): Baron Garmon of Brun -vassal of Pen.
Clarence (betw. Bristol and Gloucester): Duke Galegantis -vassal of P.
Dorset: Praetor (Duke) Jonathel (Roman) -vassal of P.
Essex: Earl Bleoberis de Ganis (Occitan -over saxon subjects) -vassal of P.
Hampshire: King Arthur Pendragon
Hertford (Bedford): Earl Gilbert of Hertford -vassal of P.
Huntingdon (around Bedford): Earl Dafydd of Huntington (Cymric -welsh/briton) -vassal of P.
Jagent (between Devon and Dorset): Earl Tegfan of Jagent -vassal of P.
Kent: Earl Kynniarc (Cymric over Saxon) -vassal of P.
Lambor (Manchesher/Leicester): Baron Blanmore de Ganis (Occitan) -vassal of P.
Lindsey (Lincoln): Duke Derfel of Lindsey
Lonazep (near the Fens): Earl Macsen of Lonazep -vassal of P.
Rydychan (Oxford): Earl Boso -vassal of P.
Salisbury: Earl Robert -vassal of P.
Silchester (Between Salisbury and London): Duke Ulfius (Saxon) -vassal of P.
Somerset: King Cadwy -vassal of P.
Southports (Hampshire coast): Admiral Theoderic (Saxon) -vassal of P.
Sussex: Earl Celyn of Sussex -vassal of P.
Tribruit (North of Oxford): Baron Meilyr of Tribruit -vassal of P.
Wuerensis (Warwick): Earl Artgualchar -vassal of P.

Cameliard (Betw Manchester and Chester): King Leodegrance (father of Guenever) -vassal of P.
Cheshire (Chester): Randle, Dux of the City of Legions -vassal of King of Norgales
Escavalon (Gwent): King Alain -vassal of P.
Estregales (Dyfed): King Lak (Irish) -vassal of P.
Galvoie (Shrewsbury..ish): The Damosels Yguerne, Morchades and Clarissant
Gloucester: Duke Morvid of Gloucester -vassal of King Alain of Escavalon
Gomeret (Perwydd..thingy): King Maelgwyn
Gwaelod (Gwenedd): Gwyddno Garanhir
Norgales (Gwenedd): King Galihodin
Orofoise (Shrewsbury): Earl Gwarthen of Orofoise -vassal of King Belinans of Sugales
Powys: King Belinans of Sugales

Cambenet (N. Carlisle): Duke Escan -vassal of P.
Deira (NE of York): King Wilgils of Deira (Saxon) -vassal of King Barant de Apres
Malahaut (York): King Barant de Apres (better known as The King of 100 Knights [le Roi des Cent Chevaliers]) -vassal of P.
Nohaut (Northumberland): Lady Ethfrida of Nohaut (Saxon) -vassal of King of Malahaut
Roestoc (Lancashire): King Eifion of Roestoc

Benoic (Fife and Angus): Duke Ansirus (Pict) -vassal of P.
Escoce (Marr to Inverness): King Carados (Pict)
Garloth (Berwick): Queen Elaine -vassal of P.
Gorre (Dumfries and Galloway): King Uriens -vassal of P.
Lothian: Stewards of Pendragon (was King Lot) -vassal of P. (Lot wasnt a vassal)
Orkneys (incl Caithness): Queen Margawse (wife of Lot)
Pictish Highlands (Athol, Argyle up to Caithness): many clan lords (picts)
Strangorre (Strathclyde): King Brangore -vassal of King Uriens of Gorre

Devon: Prince Geriant, son of Erbin -vassal of King Mark of Cornwall
Lyonesse (tip of Cornwall): King Meliodas -vassal of King Mark
Totnes (cornwall): King Mark

Cornouailles: Duke Hoel - vassal of King Mark
Domnonie (East of Leon) King Riwal
Leon: King Melaiu
Vannetais (East of Cornouailles): King Conon

Ailech (the two Tir provinces): High King Muirchertach Mac Erca (IRish/pagan)
Connacht: Eogan Bel (Irish/pagan)
Dat Riada (Ulster): Duke Galahaut (Irish christian) -vassal of P.
Leinster: King Anguish (Irsih/Christian) -vassal of P.
Long Isles (Western Isles): Duke Galahaut (Irsih/Christian) -vassal of P.
Meath (Mide): High King Muirchertach Mac Erca (Irish/christian) -vassal of P.
Munster: Crimthann, son of Fedelmid (Irish/pagan)
Oriel (Nth of meath): High King Muirchertach Mac Erca (I/p)
Pomitain (Man): King Marsil (Manx/pagan) -vassal of Duke Galahaut

none of this is probably of any help. But I had nothing better to do today.
Ayeshteni

 

[Sarmatia1871]

So I started thinking and I got this idea for a new Mod/Scenario.

What if we took the worlds of some of the great epics and romances (particularly Arthurian) and made a CK scenario based on them?

For example, I'm thinking England could be divided up amongst the Bretons, the Saxons, and the Celts, Arthur obviously being King of the Bretons and maybe some of his knights from the romances such as Erec, Gawain, Parzival, etc, being Dukes and Counts underneath him.

Over in Denmark, we could throw in people like Beowulf, Hrothgar, etc.

I'm not sure about the rest of Europe and Asia, but right now it's just an idea I'm floating out there.

Possibly the Niebilingulied (sp) in Germany? The Song of Roland in France?

I'm open to suggestions and help with this idea.

Yes, that would be very cool, especially if its done "realistically" (eg. using actual characters/creatures/situations from contemporary literature, rather than make it all about knights and princesses or a "standard" fantasy world type setup, etc...). But, like all new scenarios for CK, a lot of work!

But I'd be happy to help with research and possibly event coding, as it's sort of in my area of general research - it may feel a bit like work for me though!

For East-Central Europe, there's the old Polish chronicle about the brothers Lech, Czech and Rus, who go off in seperate directions to found their respective nations. I think for Russia the closest thing to Beowulf or the Nibelungenlied you'd have would be the Tale of Prince Igor's Campaign (also subject of a fantastic opera by Borodin, of course!). Both of these are a bit lacking in monsters, but there's enough in Slavonic folklore/mythology to make events for.

There are probably too many potentials for French historical epics to choose from, and I don't really know enough about Balkan, Italian or Spanish literature in this period to go over. But instead of the Mongols you could have the Peoples of Gog and Magog, released from their Caucasian prison to herald the Apocalypse (could do some event chains for this as well...)

 

[unmerged(20048)]

This would be very cool!
Since I'm very interested in old norse mythology I would love to help out on denmark, norway, sweden and iceland. Both with rulers and area specific events.

 

[Jestor]

Nice starting point, Ayeshteni!

Sarmatia, do you know where I could find the epics you listed, or did you want to try tackling those sections?

Corvuz_Crovax, that'd be really awesome to have you aboard! I'm very interested in hearing your ideas.

 

[Jestor]

dola,

I did a quick web search and found the following info:

Modern attempts at identifying Camelot have sought to place Camelot at the ruins of Cadbury Castle in Somerset, excavated in the 1960's. There is much underlying tradition to support this belief. Cadbury Castle is an earthwork fort of the Iron Age, which looks over the Vale of Avalon to Glastonbury. Nearby is the River Cam, and the village of Queen Camel (once known as Camel) The antiquary John Leland, in the reign of Henry VIII speaks of local people who refer to the fort as "Camalat" and as the home of Arthur.

So maybe Arthur should actually be based in Somerset?

 

[Ayeshteni]

dola,

I did a quick web search and found the following info:

Modern attempts at identifying Camelot have sought to place Camelot at the ruins of Cadbury Castle in Somerset, excavated in the 1960's. There is much underlying tradition to support this belief. Cadbury Castle is an earthwork fort of the Iron Age, which looks over the Vale of Avalon to Glastonbury. Nearby is the River Cam, and the village of Queen Camel (once known as Camel) The antiquary John Leland, in the reign of Henry VIII speaks of local people who refer to the fort as "Camalat" and as the home of Arthur.

So maybe Arthur should actually be based in Somerset?

In truth there are countless sites around Britain that hold the legendary site of Camelot. Many are in the Marcher areas of Wales or Scotland. (a program I saw YEARS ago had a very good argument for Camelot being in the Borders region of Scotland near Roxburgh (will see if there is anything on the net about it).

But you could place the site literally anywhere in Britain and it could be 'accurate'; Its up to you.

Ayeshteni

 

[Jestor]

In truth there are countless sites around Britain that hold the legendary site of Camelot. Many are in the Marcher areas of Wales or Scotland. (a program I saw YEARS ago had a very good argument for Camelot being in the Borders region of Scotland near Roxburgh (will see if there is anything on the net about it).

But you could place the site literally anywhere in Britain and it could be 'accurate'; Its up to you.

Ayeshteni

I'm thinking Somerset wouldn't be a bad idea, because another map I looked at places Launcelot's castle in the northeast part of England, on the Scottish border (I'd have to check the CK map again to see which county that would be) and if an event or event chain gets written where it's possible for Launcelot to break away and go to war with Arthur (over the whole Guenivere question naturally), then I think that'd make for a more interesting conflict.

I have to leave for supper soon, but I'm starting to piece together some of the Knights of the Round table and the relationships between them (such as Gawan and his three brothers).

At the moment I'm toying with the idea of starting the scenario with Arthur having a vast personal demense, with only one or two estabished vassal Dukes and/or Counts. That way, the huge court that he'll have comprised of his Knights of the Round Table will get their titles handed out to them by either the AI or the player, who could tailor the vassal system of the knights as they see fit. This would allow them to put their favourites in as top dogs so to speak.

And yes, I know I'm concentrating on Arthur, but that's because it's the area I'm most familiar with.

Oh, that reminds me! Crovuz, exactly how were you planning on handling Grendel in Beowulf, for example? Were you going to have him be a pagan ruler of some kind, or were you going to write him in as an event?

And the peoples of Gog and Magog for the Mongols sounds like a good idea, Sarmatia.

Crovuz, that also gives me the idea that you could potentially put the Giants from Norse folklore in as pagans, too? Just a thought.

 

[Jestor]

Epics and Romances CK Mod

Arthur Pendragon: (Breton culture)
-King of the Bretons
-Based in the County of Somerset

Vassals:
-Launcelot Du Lac: Count of North Cumberland
-Mark: Duke of Cornwall (Cornwall, Devon and Exeter)
-Melodias: Count of Leon? (I’m guessing that’s what Lyonesse is)

Court:
-Gawan*
-Gareth*
-Gaheris*
-Agravaine*
-Erec
-Galahad (Launcelot’s son)
-Bors de Ganis (Yay a dynasty name!)
-Bedivere
-Kay (Saxon culture) or if we use Cai then Welsh culture
-Lamorak
-Parzival (I’m suggesting using the von Eschenbach spelling so we can introduce
Anfortas and possibly Fortinbras or whatever it was that Parzival’s half-
brother was called)
-Tristam (son of Melodias)
-Guinevere (wife of Arthur)
-Morgan le Fay
-Mordred
-Yvain

Another question to consider from the Arthurian angle is what to do about the wives of the knights. My guess would be to have Enide and Isolde with Erec and Tristram respectively, since an entire story is built around them by Mssrs. des Troyes and von Straussburg. Beyond that, I’m not sure that it’s entirely necessary to have the specific wives match up.

Then there’s the question of children, which brings in several conflicting legends that need to be resolved, particularly in T & I’s case.

Some other random tidbits I’m considering, at least for the Arthurian part of this scenario: salic primogeniture, feudal contract for certain. Church law I’m not so certain about. Eclessiatical balance or Church supremacy maybe?

Character traits and stat ratings we can get to later in the various areas. Right now I’m just trying to flesh out titles and relationships. This is what I’ve managed to come up with so far from doing a little research.

Feel free to add anything more to this or to dispute the suggestions I’ve listed here.

Edit: *=they're all brothers to each other.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Hmmm, let's see...

According to medieval thinking, "Gog and Magog" were two nations of fierce people (possibly nomadic) who were imprisoned in the Caucasus mountains by Alexander the Great. Although "Caucasus" in this sort of period really means any mysterious mountain range somewhere far away in the East, I reckon it would be better to give them a couple of provinces in the real Caucasus (eg. around where Georgia is now), keep them reasonably peaceful, and then give them Mongol style units once the "The People's of Gog and Magog have broken free!" event hits. As a point, of historical interest, the Mongols were actually thought to be the people of Gog and Magog by a number of contemporary writers...

Ah yes! Just remembered - Prestor John, the mighty Christian ruler of the East - he really has to be included! Following a faked letter to one of the popes, there was the idea in medieval Europe that the greatest Kingdom in the world was located somewhere in the East, and had a mighty Christian ruler, who went by the title of "John the Priest" (Presbyter Johannes, Prestor John, etc...). This was the richest kingdom in the world, and full of magical creatures. There were lots of (obviously unsuccessful) attempts to find him and the precise estimated location moved around a bit, but in most of the CK period he was thought to live a bit to the East of the Islamic countries, somewhere in Central Asia. So, he'd probably be in the provinces to the east of the Caspian, where nothing much tends to happen in normal games of Crusader Kings.

Re: Slavonic Epics. I've managed to find a fairly clunky English translation of Igor's campaign here: http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/igortxt2.htm (still, it's better than Old Slavonic!).

It might be a bit heavy going if you're not familiar with Slavonic names and terminology
(eg. The first swan seized sang the first song
to old Iaroslav, to brave Mstislav who slew Rededia
as Cherkess troops looked on, to fair Roman Sviatoslavich... etc...)
But I could go through it and get a list of names/dynasties/relations.

There isn't really much to the three brothers story: essentially they're in the forest one day, and then decide to go off in different directions (the precise reason varies depending on the version). How I'd assume this would translate into game terms would be you have kingdoms of Lechia (Poland), Bohemia (or Czechia?) & Rus' (around Kiev/Ukraine) in East-Central Europe, probably with placeholder dynasties as subjects for the time being.

On the pagans issue, one way you could do this, is instead of having the standard Christians vs Pagans/Muslims division, you have "Heroic dynasties" (eg. Arthur, Slav Kingdoms, Igor, etc.) vs "Others", eg. evil or nonhuman peoples, like Gog and Magog, the Nibelungen, the Polovtsians, and Moors (in some stories!). I'm not sure how best to model the big monstrous creatures (eg. Grendel, Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless...), but it would probably be more interesting to make them rulers of outlying areas, rather than use the slightly less exciting "random event" route (eg. A terrible monster raids your drinking hall! Lose three random courtiers...).

This would also give you the whole "dark" set of facial features to play with for suitably evil/horrible looking enemies, should anyone want to start the near impossible task of face modding!

 

[Jestor]

Hmmm, let's see...

According to medieval thinking, "Gog and Magog" were two nations of fierce people (possibly nomadic) who were imprisoned in the Caucasus mountains by Alexander the Great. Although "Caucasus" in this sort of period really means any mysterious mountain range somewhere far away in the East, I reckon it would be better to give them a couple of provinces in the real Caucasus (eg. around where Georgia is now), keep them reasonably peaceful, and then give them Mongol style units once the "The People's of Gog and Magog have broken free!" event hits. As a point, of historical interest, the Mongols were actually thought to be the people of Gog and Magog by a number of contemporary writers...

Ah yes! Just remembered - Prestor John, the mighty Christian ruler of the East - he really has to be included! Following a faked letter to one of the popes, there was the idea in medieval Europe that the greatest Kingdom in the world was located somewhere in the East, and had a mighty Christian ruler, who went by the title of "John the Priest" (Presbyter Johannes, Prestor John, etc...). This was the richest kingdom in the world, and full of magical creatures. There were lots of (obviously unsuccessful) attempts to find him and the precise estimated location moved around a bit, but in most of the CK period he was thought to live a bit to the East of the Islamic countries, somewhere in Central Asia. So, he'd probably be in the provinces to the east of the Caspian, where nothing much tends to happen in normal games of Crusader Kings.

Re: Slavonic Epics. I've managed to find a fairly clunky English translation of Igor's campaign here: http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/igortxt2.htm (still, it's better than Old Slavonic!).

It might be a bit heavy going if you're not familiar with Slavonic names and terminology
(eg. The first swan seized sang the first song
to old Iaroslav, to brave Mstislav who slew Rededia
as Cherkess troops looked on, to fair Roman Sviatoslavich... etc...)
But I could go through it and get a list of names/dynasties/relations.

There isn't really much to the three brothers story: essentially they're in the forest one day, and then decide to go off in different directions (the precise reason varies depending on the version). How I'd assume this would translate into game terms would be you have kingdoms of Lechia (Poland), Bohemia (or Czechia?) & Rus' (around Kiev/Ukraine) in East-Central Europe, probably with placeholder dynasties as subjects for the time being.

On the pagans issue, one way you could do this, is instead of having the standard Christians vs Pagans/Muslims division, you have "Heroic dynasties" (eg. Arthur, Slav Kingdoms, Igor, etc.) vs "Others", eg. evil or nonhuman peoples, like Gog and Magog, the Nibelungen, the Polovtsians, and Moors (in some stories!). I'm not sure how best to model the big monstrous creatures (eg. Grendel, Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless...), but it would probably be more interesting to make them rulers of outlying areas, rather than use the slightly less exciting "random event" route (eg. A terrible monster raids your drinking hall! Lose three random courtiers...).

This would also give you the whole "dark" set of facial features to play with for suitably evil/horrible looking enemies, should anyone want to start the near impossible task of face modding!

Excellent research, Sarmatia! Thank you! This will go a long way to fleshing out the Asian part of the map.

I agree with making the monsters rulers of their own domains and it's something I was leaning towards when I started coming up with the idea, for they are in their own right equally worthy of landholding and opposition to be overcome.

Prestor's John Kingdom, I think, will definitely make for a unique playing experience in this mod even when players don't begin in that area, simply because as you say, in vanilla, not much tends to happen there.

 

[Ayeshteni]

At the moment I'm toying with the idea of starting the scenario with Arthur having a vast personal demense, with only one or two estabished vassal Dukes and/or Counts. That way, the huge court that he'll have comprised of his Knights of the Round Table will get their titles handed out to them by either the AI or the player, who could tailor the vassal system of the knights as they see fit. This would allow them to put their favourites in as top dogs so to speak.

Yes, a nice idea for the player I like . My one worry is that the AI will be reticent to do this (If Arthur has good stats - which he should) as he will be able to hold onto his demesne and only parcel out land to his sons.

Epics and Romances CK Mod

Arthur Pendragon: (Breton culture)
-King of the Bretons
-Based in the County of Somerset

Vassals:
-Launcelot Du Lac: Count of North Cumberland
-Mark: Duke of Cornwall (Cornwall, Devon and Exeter)
-Melodias: Count of Leon? (I’m guessing that’s what Lyonesse is)

Court:
-Gawan*
-Gareth*
-Gaheris*
-Agravaine*
-Erec
-Galahad (Launcelot’s son)
-Bors de Ganis (Yay a dynasty name!)
-Bedivere
-Kay (Saxon culture) or if we use Cai then Welsh culture
-Lamorak
-Parzival (I’m suggesting using the von Eschenbach spelling so we can introduce
Anfortas and possibly Fortinbras or whatever it was that Parzival’s half-
brother was called)
-Tristam (son of Melodias)
-Guinevere (wife of Arthur)
-Morgan le Fay
-Mordred
-Yvain

Another question to consider from the Arthurian angle is what to do about the wives of the knights. My guess would be to have Enide and Isolde with Erec and Tristram respectively, since an entire story is built around them by Mssrs. des Troyes and von Straussburg. Beyond that, I’m not sure that it’s entirely necessary to have the specific wives match up.

Then there’s the question of children, which brings in several conflicting legends that need to be resolved, particularly in T & I’s case.

Some other random tidbits I’m considering, at least for the Arthurian part of this scenario: salic primogeniture, feudal contract for certain. Church law I’m not so certain about. Eclessiatical balance or Church supremacy maybe?

Character traits and stat ratings we can get to later in the various areas. Right now I’m just trying to flesh out titles and relationships. This is what I’ve managed to come up with so far from doing a little research.

Feel free to add anything more to this or to dispute the suggestions I’ve listed here.

Edit: *=they're all brothers to each other.

Nice. If you are to have Guenever then you have to have her father King Leodegrance de Cameliard. This brings me to dynasty names: From the list I gave I also had 'place names' while not truly accurate to the Arthurian legend (not all given are in there) you could use the 'de x' for the dynasty names for those that dont have any. Some others I do know..

Leodegrance de Cameliard
Morgan(a) [le Fey could be her dynasty name]
Gawaine de Orkney [he is the son of King Lot and Queen Margawse after all]
Meliodas de Lyonesse
Lamorak de Gales (so he is from Wales somewhere - he and the de Orkneys, particularily Gawaine dont get on.)

and so on.

Lyonesse was a 'fabled' land somewhere between Cornwall and Brittany (it is considered to have been sunk beneath the channel) but I suppose 'Leon' (possibly where the name derivates from) could be a very good place for it yes.

As for laws. Semi-salic primogeniture, Feudal Contract and Church Supremacy definately.

ayeshteni

 

[Jestor]

Yes, a nice idea for the player I like . My one worry is that the AI will be reticent to do this (If Arthur has good stats - which he should) as he will be able to hold onto his demesne and only parcel out land to his sons.



Nice. If you are to have Guenever then you have to have her father King Leodegrance de Cameliard. This brings me to dynasty names: From the list I gave I also had 'place names' while not truly accurate to the Arthurian legend (not all given are in there) you could use the 'de x' for the dynasty names for those that dont have any. Some others I do know..

Leodegrance de Cameliard
Morgan(a) [le Fey could be her dynasty name]
Gawaine de Orkney [he is the son of King Lot and Queen Margawse after all]
Meliodas de Lyonesse
Lamorak de Gales (so he is from Wales somewhere - he and the de Orkneys, particularily Gawaine dont get on.)

and so on.

Lyonesse was a 'fabled' land somewhere between Cornwall and Brittany (it is considered to have been sunk beneath the channel) but I suppose 'Leon' (possibly where the name derivates from) could be a very good place for it yes.

As for laws. Semi-salic primogeniture, Feudal Contract and Church Supremacy definately.

ayeshteni

Yeah I'm leaning towards Church Supremacy myself. Feudal Contract is pretty much a given, as is primogeniture. I'm curious as to your argument for semi-salic over salic, though.

And thank you for all the information here. Leon I've initially removed from the revised list I've created because that gets into French territory and if it's covered by a French epic and/or romance, then I want it to stay with France.

If, on the other hand, it goes unclaimed by France, then I'll feed it to Melodias.

 

[Jestor]

Epics and Romances CK Mod

Arthur Pendragon: (Breton culture)
-King of the Bretons
-Based in the County of Somerset
Vassals
-Launcelot du Lac: Count of North Cumberland
-Erec: Duke of Dumnonia (Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset title provs)

Court
-Gawan de Orkney*
-Gareth*
-Gaheris*
-Agravaine*
-Galahad du Lac (Launcelot’s son)
-Bors de Ganis
-Bedivere
-Kay (Saxon culture) or if we use Cai then Welsh culture
-Lamorak de Gales (Welsh culture)
-Parzival
-Tristam
-Guinevere de Cameliard (wife of Arthur)
-Morgan le Fay
-Mordred
-Yvain

Other English nobles:
-Mark: Count of Cornwall (Actually we run into a problem here. Mark is a King in the texts I’ve researched so far, yet even if he were a Ducal title, he still conflicts with Erec, who was made King of Dumnonia and whose territory conflicts with that of King Mark’s. My feeling here is to give Cornwall as a county to Mark and give Erec the greater glory. Feel free to debate this.)

-Lot de Orkney: King/Duke of Lothian? Orkneys? Somewhere in the Scottish region
-Margwase de Orkney: Wife of King Lot

-Leodegrance de Cameliard: (My guess is he’ll have a Ducal title to cut down on the number of Kings running around, but we’ll see how the map shapes out. Oh and I need to figure out where exactly he is on the map.)

Asia
-Presbyster Johannes (King of Really Really Rich Kingdom)
-Really Really Rich Kingdom’s Provinces
-Dihistan
-Merv
-Turkmen
-Bukhara
-Kara-Kum
-Maveannahr
-Usturt
-Khwarizm
-Emba
-Mangyshlak

Is 10 provinces big enough for a kingdom like that? The thing is, it covers a very large swath of territory on the CK map, even though the provinces themselves are limited in number. I pretty much gave Johannes most of the territory east of the Caspian as per Sarmatia’s suggestion.

Keep the information coming, guys. I'm off to try and see if I can't start actually tinkering around with modding in the stuff that seems more or less established. Failing that, I'll try sleep since it's 4 am here.

 

[unmerged(20048)]

Oh, that reminds me! Crovuz, exactly how were you planning on handling Grendel in Beowulf, for example? Were you going to have him be a pagan ruler of some kind, or were you going to write him in as an event?

I think events would handle grendel and grendels mother best. Generally having "non human monsters" as characters seems a bit too weird. I suggest taking one of the "Sickness" province effects and renaming it to something like "Monster Presence". Then it would be possible to write events based on the presence of this province effect. If it's present you could have events firing where the monster demands you virgin daughter or where it attacks your keep or where you get the oppurtunity to send out your marshal to combat it all depending on the province culture which would determine which kind of monster was present (Danish = Grendel, Norwegian = The world serpent, Swedish = The Fenrir Wolf, Russian = Baba Yaga, Greek = Minotaur?, Arabic = Djiin? etc)

Crovuz, that also gives me the idea that you could potentially put the Giants from Norse folklore in as pagans, too? Just a thought.

But of course, I think the story of beowulf will concentrate on denmark. The mountains of inner norway will be the domain of the giants and the dwarves while the deep forests of inner sweden will be the home of elves. The coasts I plan to populate with historical or semi historical figures. Iceland will be the home of the fire giants with Surt as their leader. I will se if I can dig up a list of the actual characters that would go to these domains.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Asia
-Presbyster Johannes (King of Really Really Rich Kingdom)
-Really Really Rich Kingdom’s Provinces
-Dihistan
-Merv
-Turkmen
-Bukhara
-Kara-Kum
-Maveannahr
-Usturt
-Khwarizm
-Emba
-Mangyshlak

Is 10 provinces big enough for a kingdom like that? The thing is, it covers a very large swath of territory on the CK map, even though the provinces themselves are limited in number. I pretty much gave Johannes most of the territory east of the Caspian as per Sarmatia’s suggestion.

Keep the information coming, guys. I'm off to try and see if I can't start actually tinkering around with modding in the stuff that seems more or less established. Failing that, I'll try sleep since it's 4 am here.

Ah! We have an abriged and translated copy of Prestor John's letter here - http://www.graveworm.com/occult/texts/pjohn.html

The most relevant stuff seems to be:

"We have some people subject to us who feed on the flesh of men and of prematurely born animals, and who never fear death. When any of these people die, their friends and relations eat him ravenously, for they regard it as a main duty to munch human flesh. Their names are Gog, Magog, Anie, Agit, Azenach, Fommeperi, Befari, Conei-Samante, Agrimandri, Vintefolei, Casbei, and Alanei. Theses and similar nations were shut in behind lofty mountains by Alexander the Great, towards the north. We lead them at our pleasure against our foes, and neither man nor beast is left undevoured, if our Majesty gives the requisite permission. And when all our foes are eaten, then we return with our hosts home again.

These accursed fifteen [twelve?] nations will burst forth from the four quarters of the earth at the end of the world, in the times of the Antichrist, and overrun all the abodes of the saints as well as the great city Rome, which, by the way, we are prepared to give to our son who will be born, alon with all Italy, Germany, the two Gauls, Britain, and Scotland. We shall also give him Spain and all of the land as far as the icy sea."​

So, I think all these people would fill up the Caucasus quite well, and give the mighty Kingdom of Prestor John something suitable to fight when they decide to stop bowing to his Majesty's permission and burst forth! May be better to start them as independant, although keeping them subject to Prestor John would mean that no-one would be able to take them out before the Apocalypse.

Also:

"Seven Kings wait upon us monthly, in turn, with sixty-two dukes, two hundred and fifty-six counts and marquises. Twelve archbishops sit at table with us on our right and twenty bishops on the left, besides the patriarch of St. Thomas, the Sarmatian Protopope, and the Archpope of Susa ..."​

So, may be a bit much given the number of provinces! It would probably better therefore to make the "seven kings" into Dukes ruling seven of the provinces (maybe have the three religious ones too?), and having Prestor John himself ruling only one province directly. The rest of his Kingdom ("in the three Indies ... and our land extends beyond India ... it reaches towards the sunrise over the wastes, and it trends toward deserted Babylon near the Tower of Babel...") can be considered "off-map!"


Re: The Monsters as Characters or Events issue: While it probably is a bit out of the spirit of the original stories to have individual figures like Grendel or Baba Yaga as the "counts" of independant nations, it would be a bit unexciting to have semi-random text boxes coming up telling you about their attacks, then get another set of events telling you that your marshall has won or lost! If I remember, Grendel and his (unforgettable!) mother had a lair somewhere (I'm waiting for a barrage of Anglo-Saxon quotes to dispute this issue though!), so could the rulership of the country not represent simply being the general area that that they're currently residing in (and no-one else is daring to go into!), and the "troops" the province raises be simply seen as a single big monster?

That way, you could have culturally dependant border events (kind of like the "Mongols raid your province" events in the betas) representing their attacks/demands etc., which would at least give you some impetus and ability to get rid of them through direct action.

 

[Jestor]

I think events would handle grendel and grendels mother best. Generally having "non human monsters" as characters seems a bit too weird. I suggest taking one of the "Sickness" province effects and renaming it to something like "Monster Presence". Then it would be possible to write events based on the presence of this province effect. If it's present you could have events firing where the monster demands you virgin daughter or where it attacks your keep or where you get the oppurtunity to send out your marshal to combat it all depending on the province culture which would determine which kind of monster was present (Danish = Grendel, Norwegian = The world serpent, Swedish = The Fenrir Wolf, Russian = Baba Yaga, Greek = Minotaur?, Arabic = Djiin? etc)

Mmm... I'd propose splitting this up actually into two sections. Grendel/The World Serpent/Fenrir/Baba Yaga should all be rulers in my opinion, because it does mention Grendel and his mother as possessing a swampy territory. Also, Grendel is a giant, or at least giant-kin, which isn't too far removed from humans.

Minotaurs and Djins could be event-written.

My reasoning here is that the first group of monsters is unique and individual and therefore should rule territory, whereas the second group is more race-based and so lends itself better to events.

Well, let me change that. The World Serpent should be an event as well, I think, as it encircles the entire world.

But of course, I think the story of beowulf will concentrate on denmark. The mountains of inner norway will be the domain of the giants and the dwarves while the deep forests of inner sweden will be the home of elves. The coasts I plan to populate with historical or semi historical figures. Iceland will be the home of the fire giants with Surt as their leader. I will se if I can dig up a list of the actual characters that would go to these domains.

All those sound like very good ideas. And related to that, should we give a province or two in Ireland to the leprechauns? Or would they perhaps be suited better as a unit type for the non-Heroic faction?

Banshees might be a good unit for non-Heroics too in Ireland, if all this can be managed of course.

 

[Jestor]

Ah! We have an abriged and translated copy of Prestor John's letter here - http://www.graveworm.com/occult/texts/pjohn.html

The most relevant stuff seems to be:

"We have some people subject to us who feed on the flesh of men and of prematurely born animals, and who never fear death. When any of these people die, their friends and relations eat him ravenously, for they regard it as a main duty to munch human flesh. Their names are Gog, Magog, Anie, Agit, Azenach, Fommeperi, Befari, Conei-Samante, Agrimandri, Vintefolei, Casbei, and Alanei. Theses and similar nations were shut in behind lofty mountains by Alexander the Great, towards the north. We lead them at our pleasure against our foes, and neither man nor beast is left undevoured, if our Majesty gives the requisite permission. And when all our foes are eaten, then we return with our hosts home again.

These accursed fifteen [twelve?] nations will burst forth from the four quarters of the earth at the end of the world, in the times of the Antichrist, and overrun all the abodes of the saints as well as the great city Rome, which, by the way, we are prepared to give to our son who will be born, alon with all Italy, Germany, the two Gauls, Britain, and Scotland. We shall also give him Spain and all of the land as far as the icy sea."​

So, I think all these people would fill up the Caucasus quite well, and give the mighty Kingdom of Prestor John something suitable to fight when they decide to stop bowing to his Majesty's permission and burst forth! May be better to start them as independant, although keeping them subject to Prestor John would mean that no-one would be able to take them out before the Apocalypse.

Also:

"Seven Kings wait upon us monthly, in turn, with sixty-two dukes, two hundred and fifty-six counts and marquises. Twelve archbishops sit at table with us on our right and twenty bishops on the left, besides the patriarch of St. Thomas, the Sarmatian Protopope, and the Archpope of Susa ..."​

So, may be a bit much given the number of provinces! It would probably better therefore to make the "seven kings" into Dukes ruling seven of the provinces (maybe have the three religious ones too?), and having Prestor John himself ruling only one province directly. The rest of his Kingdom ("in the three Indies ... and our land extends beyond India ... it reaches towards the sunrise over the wastes, and it trends toward deserted Babylon near the Tower of Babel...") can be considered "off-map!"


Re: The Monsters as Characters or Events issue: While it probably is a bit out of the spirit of the original stories to have individual figures like Grendel or Baba Yaga as the "counts" of independant nations, it would be a bit unexciting to have semi-random text boxes coming up telling you about their attacks, then get another set of events telling you that your marshall has won or lost! If I remember, Grendel and his (unforgettable!) mother had a lair somewhere (I'm waiting for a barrage of Anglo-Saxon quotes to dispute this issue though!), so could the rulership of the country not represent simply being the general area that that they're currently residing in (and no-one else is daring to go into!), and the "troops" the province raises be simply seen as a single big monster?

That way, you could have culturally dependant border events (kind of like the "Mongols raid your province" events in the betas) representing their attacks/demands etc., which would at least give you some impetus and ability to get rid of them through direct action.

Excellent idea on having the tribes fill up the Caucus provinces! And I'm thinking they should be kept under the thumb of Prestor John's kingdom, as that would give them an impetus to break free and also would fit the contents of the letter you've described.

Of course, that will also help with the problem of Prestor John's kingdom seeming too small, as it gives a lot more territory to be concerned with. Unless we want to keep the core of the Kingdom just those 10 provinces and have the tribes simply be non-core vassals? It's worth considering.

And I'm imagining the duchies will all be one-county duchies?

 

[Ayeshteni]

Other English nobles:
-Mark: Count of Cornwall (Actually we run into a problem here. Mark is a King in the texts I’ve researched so far, yet even if he were a Ducal title, he still conflicts with Erec, who was made King of Dumnonia and whose territory conflicts with that of King Mark’s. My feeling here is to give Cornwall as a county to Mark and give Erec the greater glory. Feel free to debate this.)

hehe. I kinda like Mark as the King of the region rather than Erec. But it is up to you. The Pendragon RPG has Mark coming from Totnes (which would be the Exeter province in CK) though I prefer him to come from Tintagel (A famous castle in the region, supposedly were Arthur was conceived according to one version of the story) in which case it would be the Devon province in CK. At any rate whoever you feel is superior (as I say I would pick Mark - he is more famous and appears in the German Tristam and Isolde cycle) should have their capital at Tintagel in 'Devon'.

-Lot de Orkney: King/Duke of Lothian? Orkneys? Somewhere in the Scottish region
-Margwase de Orkney: Wife of King Lot

Well IIRC King Lot was killed by King Pellinore (now disappeared) by the time Camelot is founded and so forth and 'Lothian' is held by agents of Arthur. Nevertheless I would give Lot de Orkney the seat of Lothian (cant kill him at the start eh?) and give him Orkney, Caithness and Sutherland as his ancestral lands. If Lot is dead at start then the Orkneys should be under Queen Margawse (Lothian too, or under a placeholder or Arthur directly). The Orkneys would then go to Arthur when one of Lots sons inherit (probably Gawaine)

-Leodegrance de Cameliard: (My guess is he’ll have a Ducal title to cut down on the number of Kings running around, but we’ll see how the map shapes out. Oh and I need to figure out where exactly he is on the map.)

Duke titles are probably best. Too many Kings will be bothersome. Leodegrance de Cameliard should be in either Chester or Lancaster (according to Pendragon RPG, nothing substantial otherwise elsewhere), I would chose Lancaster.

One other thing. Arthur should not use the ENGL tag as his enemies will probably give fealty to him. A U-tag is best (but you know this of course)

It also may be wise to give Lancelot Irish culture (he comes from a distant land across the sea after all) but this is a trifling matter.

Ayeshteni

 

[Jestor]

hehe. I kinda like Mark as the King of the region rather than Erec. But it is up to you. The Pendragon RPG has Mark coming from Totnes (which would be the Exeter province in CK) though I prefer him to come from Tintagel (A famous castle in the region, supposedly were Arthur was conceived according to one version of the story) in which case it would be the Devon province in CK. At any rate whoever you feel is superior (as I say I would pick Mark - he is more famous and appears in the German Tristam and Isolde cycle) should have their capital at Tintagel in 'Devon'.

Good point. I can't believe I forgot that Mark shows up in Gottfried's Tristram and Isolde. It's something I'm going to wrestle with a bit more, though. What I may do is shift Arthur out of Somerset to somewhere else, so I can have both the Duke of Cornwall (or whatever would be best for Mark's title) and the Duke of Dumnonia as titles. In which case Mark's title would have Devon, Exeter, and Cornwall, and Erec's title would have Somerset and Dorset. While Dumnonia only actually ventured into the western part of Somerset and Dorset, I think in this case it's enough to justify it so that we can have two Ducal titles in the region and let Mark and Erec both have their rightful places.

Well IIRC King Lot was killed by King Pellinore (now disappeared) by the time Camelot is founded and so forth and 'Lothian' is held by agents of Arthur. Nevertheless I would give Lot de Orkney the seat of Lothian (cant kill him at the start eh?) and give him Orkney, Caithness and Sutherland as his ancestral lands. If Lot is dead at start then the Orkneys should be under Queen Margawse (Lothian too, or under a placeholder or Arthur directly). The Orkneys would then go to Arthur when one of Lots sons inherit (probably Gawaine)

I'm tempted to make Lot an actual King, since that would give him control of Scotland, but then we would run into the problem of Gawaine breaking away from Arthur (or whichever of Lot's sons it is) when he inherits. Therefore, I'm thinking another Duchy, with the Kingdom of Scotland a creatable title. Maybe we should sneak a few Picts in there too somewhere? Or is that getting too much away from the epics and romances theme and getting too historical? I do agree with the distribution of territory though and when I post a layout update later tonight, the changes will be in there.

Duke titles are probably best. Too many Kings will be bothersome. Leodegrance de Cameliard should be in either Chester or Lancaster (according to Pendragon RPG, nothing substantial otherwise elsewhere), I would chose Lancaster.

One other thing. Arthur should not use the ENGL tag as his enemies will probably give fealty to him. A U-tag is best (but you know this of course)

It also may be wise to give Lancelot Irish culture (he comes from a distant land across the sea after all) but this is a trifling matter.

Ayeshteni

Leodegrance in Lancaster? That sounds fair enough unless evidence is dug up that proves otherwise. I'll keep looking around myself to see what I can find on him.

As far as the tags go, I was going to wipe out all the titles that are in vanilla and just create the titles from scratch. Is this feasible?

With regards to Launcelot, I was actually considering making him French or Norman, because to me, with his name and being from a distant land across the sea would imply Normandy rather than Ireland, given his personality, name, etc. Plus, every depiction I've seen in film of Arthur running across Galahad on the beach on his way to mistakenly find Launcelot, the beach has looked more like France than Ireland.

So Arthur will need shifting, I've decided. I like the two Duchies idea a lot, especially since it makes Mark the more powerful Duke/King as would seem to be the case from the body of stories. I'll take a look at the CK map again after I get done reading The Lais of Marie de France for Medieval English Lit tomorrow and hunt around with where precisely to place him.