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ts227

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Apr 19, 2015
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So to lay my cards on the table: I like characters. I know a lot of EU players don't, and find them a bit cheesy and CK3, but I like them. I think they should be important, in the way they were important (in my view) in history. I also quite like the 3D models, at least the way they look now.

So where do characters currently appear in EU5? As rulers and cabinet members, probably leading armies, and maybe in some events. I think they promised us another as-yet-unrevealed use in the TT on characters, but I haven't seen any sign of that yet.

I think there should be other uses for characters, and I have a suggestion: estates. Now, I don't want CK3 style landed vassals, but picture this: each estate includes 3 or 4 "most prominent members", so for instance if its the (Catholic) clergy it would mostly be cardinals and archbishops, or just bishops in smaller realms, dukes and earls/counts for nobility, prominent merchants for the burghers, etc.

These would not by any means represent the totality of the estate's power, but maybe only 4 or 5% each, so collectively maybe 15–20% of the total.

What would be the advantage of this? Well, for one thing it would allow you to slightly tweak estate satisfaction without granting a general concession. Say for instance you're at 48% noble satisfaction and you need 50% to pass a reform. You don't want to grant a concession when you only need 2%. You see that one of the 3 most prominent nobles, with 5% estate influence, has an ambition to lead the army, so you give him command of your main force, or appoint him to cabinet with responsibility for overseeing the military, giving you a +40 opinion bonus with him. His 5% estate influence means overall noble satisfaction increases +2 and you can pass your reform. You could also bribe individuals, at a cost of corruption, whereas you can't bribe whole estates.

Characters might want specific things – the Archbishop of Trier might want you to construct a new church in Trier. A leading merchant might want you to lower the cost of wool on your market. Fulfilling these things could give you small but meaningful estate satisfaction bonuses, as well as giving you an incentive to award cabinet posts to less capable members of the nobility instead of more talented commoners.

I want to reiterate: I'm not talking about actual landed vassals. You'd only interact with them in the estate tab (though they could also be appointed to cabinet, army/navy command, etc) but I think it would add to the immersive sense that your realm is actually populated by living individuals who have individual influence and seek to achieve their own individual ends.

Lastly, these characters could be usefully connected to events – "a prominent noble has lost all his money at the gaming tables", "ministers urge us to tax a rich merchant's recent windfall" etc, meaning that in addition to the immediate cost in gold/stability, that pissed off / grateful individual is still in your estate tab, with a lasting opinion modifier affecting overall estate satisfaction.

Anyhow, those are just some notions. Any thoughts, or other potential uses for characters?
 
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They have to have a pool of characters you can recruit from don't they? I wouldn't mind if the people in that pool were involved in estates, rather than just sitting on their hands.
 
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It would complicate things relating to parliament.

But I would really love to see diplomats being incorporated as characters instead of mana.

Moreover, if characters who are visiting other countries (on a diplomatic mission, on a pilgrimage, etc) they could get imprisoned and/or killed by the host country.
 
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I think the cabinet is already related to one or another estate. The main problem I'd see with that suggestion is that any character complexity added to "the nation" means complexity multiplied by the hundreds of tags in the game. So i don't know if performance will allow it. But otherwhise adding living characters to represent part (or maybe even the totality ?) of each estates influence (a bit like "tags within the tags" but that can't be played and only own some buildings), and that have their own objectives and that you need to manage to sway one way or another would hopefully make the nation and the estates feel more like "other characters with their agendas" and less like "abstract mechanism to use and abuse as much as I can"
 
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They have to have a pool of characters you can recruit from don't they? I wouldn't mind if the people in that pool were involved in estates, rather than just sitting on their hands.
I hadn’t thought of that but that’s a good point - in Vicky 3 generals belong to interest groups; it would be cool if the same was true in EU5 for estates, but maybe you could also see their ‘clout’ within that interest group, so if they like/dislike you, that has a proportional effect on the whole estate.
 
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I think the cabinet is already related to one or another estate. The main problem I'd see with that suggestion is that any character complexity added to "the nation" means complexity multiplied by the hundreds of tags in the game. So i don't know if performance will allow it. But otherwhise adding living characters to represent part (or maybe even the totality ?) of each estates influence (a bit like "tags within the tags" but that can't be played and only own some buildings), and that have their own objectives and that you need to manage to sway one way or another would hopefully make the nation and the estates feel more like "other characters with their agendas" and less like "abstract mechanism to use and abuse as much as I can"
Yeah, and what I’m talking about is going to be fairly marginal in terms of gameplay, so it would be hard to justify even a moderate performance impact. Given that it would be mostly a flavour thing, I wouldn’t mind if it was something the AI simply didn’t interact with much, if at all.
It would complicate things relating to parliament.

But I would really love to see diplomats being incorporated as characters instead of mana.

Moreover, if characters who are visiting other countries (on a diplomatic mission, on a pilgrimage, etc) they could get imprisoned and/or killed by the host country.
Yes, it would be fun if you had character diplomats and merchants with skill stats, so that an opponent might be a bit more likely to accept a truce or trade deal if you send your ace persuasion/charisma/acumen guy, and it’s really a loss to you when he dies.

They could also each belong to an estate, so if they get imprisoned/killed and you don’t do anything about it, you get an opinion malus with that estate.
 
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I hadn’t thought of that but that’s a good point - in Vicky 3 generals belong to interest groups; it would be cool if the same was true in EU5 for estates, but maybe you could also see their ‘clout’ within that interest group, so if they like/dislike you, that has a proportional effect on the whole estate.
Isn't this exactly how it works? All characters available to give a cabinet position or lead an army have an estate they belong to
 
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All characters have a Estate they are associated to... appointing a character affects the power of his Estate.
 
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