Estonia's Desire to Become a Nordic Country?

[Jopa79]

*This thread was inspired by @Spelaren's earlier thread about a Scandinavian nation - a kind of follow-up thread this one here

A proposed design for Estonian cross flag.

I would like to ask people around here, what's your opinion about should Estonia be considered as a Nordic Country? Especially, it would be very interesting to hear if there are some Estonians in this community and about their view, experience about this matter.

Estonia has a historical connection with Scandinavia and the modern Nordic Countries since the Estonian Viking Age and later Estonia became a part of the Danish and Swedish Empires. This era left a lasting Scandinavian influence on the creation of the Estonian identity, the ties to the Nordic world, the feeling of togetherness always as present during the Estonian national awakening. Genetics and linguistics also draw Estonia near to the other Nordic Countries, for instance the very closeness between Finnish and Estonian languages.

A push towards being defined as a Nordic Country has existed in independent Estonia since the War of Independence in 1918 and categorizing Estonia as a Nordic nation is common in Estonia. However, the current mainstream outside Estonia doesn't oftenly accept this view.

Edit: Also the Estonian National Anthem shares the melody with the Finnish National Anthem
Edit II: Modern era considers Estonia as one of the Baltic States, however this actually is only a geopolitical term in Estonia's case and this Baltic orientation cannot be used while describing the cultural areas, national identity or language in Estonia

 

[Spelaren]

You'll always be a nordic country to me<3

 

[olm]

This aim to become Nordic country was seen by many as a goal to strive for in Estonia in late 90s and early 00s, but nowadays it is actually quite rare to see it mentioned in Estonian internal discourse.

 

[Minodrin]

Does anyone want to be Nordic anymore? The Norwegians are in Nato, but not in the EU. The Swedes are in the EU, but not in Nato or the Euro. Danmark is in both the EU and Nato, but not the Euro, and Finland has the EU and Euro, but no Nato. We are all looking in different directions now, and seeking our destiny from our own starting point. We are not Nordics, but Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and only then maybe Europeans.

Nordic co-operation is dead, long live larger unions.

 

[LizarDAMN]

Finland and Sweden just beefed up their defence cooperation though, after Russia invaded Crimea.

Does anyone want to be Nordic anymore? The Norwegians are in Nato, but not in the EU. The Swedes are in the EU, but not in Nato or the Euro. Danmark is in both the EU and Nato, but not the Euro, and Finland has the EU and Euro, but no Nato. We are all looking in different directions now, and seeking our destiny from our own starting point. We are not Nordics, but Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and only then maybe Europeans.

Nordic co-operation is dead, long live larger unions.

 

[Fulmen]

Does anyone want to be Nordic anymore? The Norwegians are in Nato, but not in the EU. The Swedes are in the EU, but not in Nato or the Euro. Danmark is in both the EU and Nato, but not the Euro, and Finland has the EU and Euro, but no Nato. We are all looking in different directions now, and seeking our destiny from our own starting point. We are not Nordics, but Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and only then maybe Europeans.

Nordic co-operation is dead, long live larger unions.

The idea of Nordic solidarity was never that strong to begin with, as demonstrated by WW2.

 

[DarthJF]

Nordic ideal has always been more about cultural affinity than hard-nosed geopolitics. All the Nordic ountries had widely different experiences in WW2. Denmark and Norway got occupied by the Germans, Sweden remained neutral and Finland allied with Germany after the Winter War, and those experiences affected the security arrangements of each country in the post-war era up to today.

 

[LizarDAMN]

Speaking about WW2 experiences, I feel obligated to post this link, watch at your own risk.

 

[fr-rein]

As long as Estonia doesn't try to be Nordic Macedonia it is fine to see cultural affinity.

 

[Jopa79]

Nordic ideal has always been more about cultural affinity than hard-nosed geopolitics. All the Nordic ountries had widely different experiences in WW2. Denmark and Norway got occupied by the Germans, Sweden remained neutral and Finland allied with Germany after the Winter War

(I'm leaving Iceland excluded here) I would rather say, that the Nordic Countries and also the Baltic States had to face pretty much same threats. But how these countries approached and which were their attitudes toward the threats - it varied and resulted in different outcomes.

All these countries, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden had were being heated by Nazi-Germany or the Soviet Union or by both.

In 1939 the Baltic States bent under the Soviet claims which eventually ended living some 50 years under the Soviet occupation. However, all the Baltic States collaborated with Nazi-Germany during 1941-1944 to resist the Soviet threat. Ultimately, Estonia decided to rather fight in the Finnish ranks against the Soviets than with Nazi-Germany.

In 1939 also Finland was presented by the Soviet demands, in principal, very much same kind of terms like the Baltic States were given. Contrarily to the Baltic States, Finland chose to fight. Allying with Nazi-Germany - however without signing the Tripartite-Pact - in 1941 was just due to the common enemy. There was no ideological objectives shared with Germany, Finland executed its own, independent ambition during the Continuation War. Finland failed in reaching its wartime objectives, but remained independence.

Denmark and Norway resisted the German invasion, but were lacking of resources, every kind, to stop Nazi-Germany.

Sweden's neutrality is under heavy suspicion. It declared herself as neutral while the outbreak of the WWII, but changed the status during the Winter War as to non-belligerent. Sweden sent men and arms for the Finnish war effort throughout 1939-1944. During 1941-1945 Sweden balanced between the demands by the Allies and Nazi-Germany, ostensibly remaining as neutral, but making concessions for both sides.

All the Nordic Countries and the Baltic States declared themselves neutral in 1939. The geopolitics created by other nations and the Nordic and the Baltic approach to this exact policy resulted in differently.

 

[olm]

Btw, Finland was also commonly regarded as a "Baltic state" in the Interwar period (1918-1939), but obviously after Soviets had annexed Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania while Finland focused towards Scandinavia such classification didn't make much sense anymore.

 

[Jopa79]

Btw, Finland was also commonly regarded as a "Baltic state" in the Interwar period (1918-1939), but obviously after Soviets had annexed Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania while Finland focused towards Scandinavia such classification didn't make much sense anymore.

Actually, I hadn't heard it before, Finland originally being one of the four Baltic States, but seems to be true. It's kind of making sense, as it refers to the countries by the Baltic Sea that gained independence from the Russian Empire after the WWI. Which I knew already, was the border-state-policy, Entente cordiale between Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and Poland against the general Soviet threat. But while this policy failed in the mid-1930's Finland renewed its ambitions in foreign affairs and announced neutrality and the Nordic tendency as the objective. However, after the WWII Finland had to balance under the harsh Soviet supervising and meantime she tried to sidle closer with the West and the other Nordic Countries.

Anyway, in my opinion, it supports the idea of the earlier Estonian tendency to be Nordic as well.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Adopt the flag in the OP and let's talk.

 

[olm]

While a few Nordic cross flag proposals have been made historically, I don't think any of them had any real chance of passing. Current flag pretty much secured its position already by 1920 as the flag under which the War of Independence was won. More recently it was also the symbol under which people rallied during the Singing Revolution. It is simply far too entrenched symbol to be replaced. Additionally, nowadays whole cross symbolism itself doesn't make much sense either, considering how irreligious Estonians are.

But if one wants to engage in alt-history theorizing then there surely are plenty of quite decent design variants around:

 

[DarthJF]

The one in top right is a nice one.

 

[soda7777777]

The one in top right is a nice one.

Looks a bit too iron cross-y

 

[Avernite]

And bottom left looks too Finnish-y. I know having clear flags isn't hip (see the Slavic flags, or the Arab ones, ...) but I still appreciate it.

 

[Pyoro]

Looks a bit too iron cross-y

That's the alt.history where Estonia was destined to unite Scandinavia through its military might.

 

[JodelDiplom]

The one in top right is a nice one.

It tingles my Germanic senses

I feel an irresistible urge to play Preussens Gloria

Add some eagles and will start goose stepping

 

[Amelia.Fa]

استونی این مزیت ها را دارد که به عنوان یک کشور شمال اروپا شناخته می شود.