Expand Military Integration with Pops and Characters

[htimsnivek]

I've recently returned to Imperator Rome after not playing since 1.1 and I've enjoyed some adventures in 1.5.3. I'm looking forward to what they do with 1.6 and I'm hoping it isn't too late to actually influence where the military update will head. I took inspiration from @curtadams comment about strengthening the military integration with the Pops, characters and provinces and came up with this is list that I think would help:

General/Admiral Characters:​

• Require a character to raise and lead EVERY army and navy
• Levy armies from within a region at any Provincial capital like CK3 levies appear at the capital
• Levy army units from any region directly at the national capital to limit micromanagement, again like CK3
• Either teleport units like CK3 levies or add an EU4 black flag style mechanic to limit stack wiping of single units rallying to their general
• Add a carpet siege ability to armies that sieges neighboring settlements like forts currently do to minimize carpet siege micromanagement
• Provide buffs to specific unit types and/or moral recovery rate based on the general's character traits (I miss the CK2 army leader buffs)
• Reduce the need to drill armies by increasing military experience mana gained during warfare
• Link character abilities and traits to max army size so a poor level 3 martial Pop can't lead a 70 stack army effectively
• Add a trait to monarchs / national leaders so they can always lead a large army even if they will suck at it with their horrible martial
• Allow generals to link to each other so doom stacks require super generals or multiple generals
• Generate event chains to simulate interactions between Character generals in the same army, province, or region
• Event chains would create dynamic gameplay and simulate armies competing with each other for glory and fame
• Friendly generals could go carousing and boost army moral while rivals would have events that reflected animosity and competition between them and by extension their armies
• Add short term traits to generals that generate from event chains or military success that provide army buffs or debuffs
• Add a fatigue mechanic to characters so a general loses loyalty if they have led armies for years without a break (see below for unit fatigue ideas)
• Add events so the player knows a general wants to go home and make it easy to swap generals directly in the event popup
• Make inland forts more valuable since the carpet siege army ability would allow an army to siege multiple unprotected cities at once
• Limit barbarian carpet sieges to mid or late game barbarian hordes to create more difficult challenges but not overpower early game barbarians

Pops and Manpower:​

• Scrap the existing manpower mechanic and link units to actual Pops as others have suggested, including @Yems 'Pops and Military rework (refined 2)'
• Military units are linked to the Pop and province where they were recruited
• Military levies requires Pops that matches with the class the military unit would be recruited from (Can't recruit elite troops in your uncivilized border regions)
  • Heavy Cavalry would need Nobles plus supplies of iron AND horses
  • Heavy Infantry would need Citizens and iron
  • Light Cavalry would need Freemen and horses
  • etc...
• Levied units lower the happiness, production, and growth of their Pop class while they are levied
• Disbanded units provide a short term boost if/when they return (short term campaigns don't hurt pop growth but extended campaigns or losses do)
• Reduce national army maintenance cost to balance the fact that each unit will have a Pop production debuff
• Happy Pops boost starting unit moral and buff attack/defense slightly since happy Pops will gladly sign up and will fight better for a country the love
• Show how many additional units can be levied as the new Manpower meter
• Add manpower laws like HOI4 so you can scrape the barrel and tank your Pop growth rate if you desperately need more troops (unit to Pop ratio could be easily tuned for game balance)
• Light manpower law would allow 1 unit per Pop with smaller production and growth rate debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and father standing with two children
• Standard manpower law could allow 3 units per Pop with stardard production and growth debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and child waving at a soldier
• Scraping the barrel for manpower would allow 5 units per Pop with high production debuff and greatly reduced growth rate, icon: Mother reaching out toward 2 soldiers
• Add technologies to boost the units per Pop ratio and/or reduce the debuffs to Pop production
• Add governor ability to shift the local manpower law by +1 or -1 level
• Diplomacy windows shows their current manpower law icon, how many units they have in the field and the max number then can levy (35/60)
• Pops can become loyal to generals which would allow you to see which provinces have disloyal Pops and how many units a disloyal general could rally in rebellion
• Disloyal pops could have small debuffs to production and happiness or big buffs if their general becomes governor, what could go wrong?
• Add a drydock mechanic so naval units could be lowered and/or built up during peace times
• Navies would levy from drydocks which could also function as naval forts and draw manpower from Pops in the entire region
• Add the ability to sell excess naval units to your traders to partially recoup build costs and boost your trade production
• Create a naval mercenary group that is your traders that is cheaper to hire but has a large trade income debuffs (like levied naval units in CK2)
• Add elite standing armies tied to the head of state based on tech/empire to allow Achaemenid Immortals, Roman Praetorians, etc (Similar to CK3 Men-at-Arms)

​

Army management:​

• Armies are levied at provincial or national capitals and/or forts
• Smaller region populations limit regional levied army sizes since they are linked to Pop counts
• Create army templates to make raising your desired army composition quick and easy (like EU4)
• Show counts of each unit type in the template when you are levying armies
• Allow disbanded army units to automatically "teleport" home (like lowering levies in CK2 or Stellaris fleet retreat mechanic)
• Limit the "teleport" ability based on enemies in neighboring provinces and only within your borders and occupied territory
• Change the recruit to army button to be a levy reinforcements button
• Teleport reinforcements to reduce micromanagement with limits from enemy territory so armies can't reinforce behind enemy lines
• Show approaching army reinforcements like black flag troops so players can see enemy reinforcements coming and try to cut them off or know when armies will be growing in strength
• Add a refresh fatigued troops button like the detach damaged ships mechanic in EU4 that would swap units based on available unlevied Pops or "Manpower"
• Siege armies don't cost manpower but could increase the Pop fatigue rate for army units
• Generate history for armies with minor buffs that can be lost if too many units are lost in battle
  • A capital's first army unit would have an extensive history reflecting the many battles it has fought to grow the nation

​

Future Wishlist:​

• Integrate military supply with a rebuilt trade system
  • Allow armies to resupply based on trade range and not always drain local province food supply
  • Cut off trade supply routes based on occupied territory or enemy armies so you can starve out armies by isolating them
  • Allow supply trains to function as a mobile market that extends trade/supply range to create supply networks for distant or extended wars
  • Supply trains would burn through their supplies when they are isolated behind enemy lines or outside the nations trade range

 

[Yems]

I've recently returned to Imperator Rome after not playing since 1.1 and I've enjoyed some adventures in 1.5.3. I'm looking forward to what they do with 1.6 and I'm hoping it isn't too late to actually influence where the military update will head. I took inspiration from @curtadams comment about strengthening the military integration with the Pops, characters and provinces and came up with this is list that I think would help:

General/Admiral Characters:​

• Require a character to raise and lead EVERY army and navy
• Levy armies from within a region at any Provincial capital like CK3 levies appear at the capital
• Levy army units from any region directly at the national capital to limit micromanagement, again like CK3
• Either teleport units like CK3 levies or add an EU4 black flag style mechanic to limit stack wiping of single units rallying to their general
• Add a carpet siege ability to armies that sieges neighboring settlements like forts currently do to minimize carpet siege micromanagement
• Provide buffs to specific unit types and/or moral recovery rate based on the general's character traits (I miss the CK2 army leader buffs)
• Reduce the need to drill armies by increasing military experience mana gained during warfare
• Link character abilities and traits to max army size so a poor level 3 martial Pop can't lead a 70 stack army effectively
• Add a trait to monarchs / national leaders so they can always lead a large army even if they will suck at it with their horrible martial
• Allow generals to link to each other so doom stacks require super generals or multiple generals
• Generate event chains to simulate interactions between Character generals in the same army, province, or region
• Event chains would create dynamic gameplay and simulate armies competing with each other for glory and fame
• Friendly generals could go carousing and boost army moral while rivals would have events that reflected animosity and competition between them and by extension their armies
• Add short term traits to generals that generate from event chains or military success that provide army buffs or debuffs
• Add a fatigue mechanic to characters so a general loses loyalty if they have led armies for years without a break (see below for unit fatigue ideas)
• Add events so the player knows a general wants to go home and make it easy to swap generals directly in the event popup
• Make inland forts more valuable since the carpet siege army ability would allow an army to siege multiple unprotected cities at once
• Limit barbarian carpet sieges to mid or late game barbarian hordes to create more difficult challenges but not overpower early game barbarians

Pops and Manpower:​

• Scrap the existing manpower mechanic and link units to actual Pops as others have suggested, including @Yems 'Pops and Military rework (refined 2)'
• Military units are linked to the Pop and province where they were recruited
• Military levies requires Pops that matches with the class the military unit would be recruited from (Can't recruit elite troops in your uncivilized border regions)
  • Heavy Cavalry would need Nobles plus supplies of iron AND horses
  • Heavy Infantry would need Citizens and iron
  • Light Cavalry would need Freemen and horses
  • etc...
• Levied units lower the happiness, production, and growth of their Pop class while they are levied
• Disbanded units provide a short term boost if/when they return (short term campaigns don't hurt pop growth but extended campaigns or losses do)
• Reduce national army maintenance cost to balance the fact that each unit will have a Pop production debuff
• Happy Pops boost starting unit moral and buff attack/defense slightly since happy Pops will gladly sign up and will fight better for a country the love
• Show how many additional units can be levied as the new Manpower meter
• Add manpower laws like HOI4 so you can scrape the barrel and tank your Pop growth rate if you desperately need more troops (unit to Pop ratio could be easily tuned for game balance)
• Light manpower law would allow 1 unit per Pop with smaller production and growth rate debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and father standing with two children
• Standard manpower law could allow 3 units per Pop with stardard production and growth debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and child waving at a soldier
• Scraping the barrel for manpower would allow 5 units per Pop with high production debuff and greatly reduced growth rate, icon: Mother reaching out toward 2 soldiers
• Add technologies to boost the units per Pop ratio and/or reduce the debuffs to Pop production
• Add governor ability to shift the local manpower law by +1 or -1 level
• Diplomacy windows shows their current manpower law icon, how many units they have in the field and the max number then can levy (35/60)
• Pops can become loyal to generals which would allow you to see which provinces have disloyal Pops and how many units a disloyal general could rally in rebellion
• Disloyal pops could have small debuffs to production and happiness or big buffs if their general becomes governor, what could go wrong?
• Add a drydock mechanic so naval units could be lowered and/or built up during peace times
• Navies would levy from drydocks which could also function as naval forts and draw manpower from Pops in the entire region
• Add the ability to sell excess naval units to your traders to partially recoup build costs and boost your trade production
• Create a naval mercenary group that is your traders that is cheaper to hire but has a large trade income debuffs (like levied naval units in CK2)
• Add elite standing armies tied to the head of state based on tech/empire to allow Achaemenid Immortals, Roman Praetorians, etc (Similar to CK3 Men-at-Arms)

​

Army management:​

• Armies are levied at provincial or national capitals and/or forts
• Smaller region populations limit regional levied army sizes since they are linked to Pop counts
• Create army templates to make raising your desired army composition quick and easy (like EU4)
• Show counts of each unit type in the template when you are levying armies
• Allow disbanded army units to automatically "teleport" home (like lowering levies in CK2 or Stellaris fleet retreat mechanic)
• Limit the "teleport" ability based on enemies in neighboring provinces and only within your borders and occupied territory
• Change the recruit to army button to be a levy reinforcements button
• Teleport reinforcements to reduce micromanagement with limits from enemy territory so armies can't reinforce behind enemy lines
• Show approaching army reinforcements like black flag troops so players can see enemy reinforcements coming and try to cut them off or know when armies will be growing in strength
• Add a refresh fatigued troops button like the detach damaged ships mechanic in EU4 that would swap units based on available unlevied Pops or "Manpower"
• Siege armies don't cost manpower but could increase the Pop fatigue rate for army units
• Generate history for armies with minor buffs that can be lost if too many units are lost in battle
  • A capital's first army unit would have an extensive history reflecting the many battles it has fought to grow the nation

​

Future Wishlist:​

• Integrate military supply with a rebuilt trade system
  • Allow armies to resupply based on trade range and not always drain local province food supply
  • Cut off trade supply routes based on occupied territory or enemy armies so you can starve out armies by isolating them
  • Allow supply trains to function as a mobile market that extends trade/supply range to create supply networks for distant or extended wars
  • Supply trains would burn through their supplies when they are isolated behind enemy lines or outside the nations trade range

I quite like many of your suggestions in this post as they are actually in line and/or expand on many of the ideas I mentioned in my own post. Sadly I believe you uploaded a little too late for this week for enough people to upvote so you can get pinned.

Make sure to reupload on Monday as there is a lot of juicy stuff in there to be unceremoniously swept under the radar.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Most of these suggestions are good. We support the proposal overall, with some exceptions (majority against) and objections (most of us agree with them, but some don't)

exceptions:

Add a trait to monarchs / national leaders so they can always lead a large army even if they will suck at it with their horrible martial

Too complicated and could cause bugs after electons.

• Teleport reinforcements to reduce micromanagement with limits from enemy territory so armies can't reinforce behind enemy lines

Allow disbanded army units to automatically "teleport" home (like lowering levies in CK2 or Stellaris fleet retreat mechanic)

These 2 Would remove a layer of strategy (where to recruit and disband). Unanimous disagree (on both).

objections:

Either teleport units like CK3 levies or add an EU4 black flag style mechanic to limit stack wiping of single units rallying to their general

Teleport is a bad idea and immersion-breaking. Blackflag is fine.

• Add a fatigue mechanic to characters so a general loses loyalty if they have led armies for years without a break (see below for unit fatigue ideas)
• Add events so the player knows a general wants to go home and make it easy to swap generals directly in the event popup

Pops can become loyal to generals which would allow you to see which provinces have disloyal Pops and how many units a disloyal general could rally in rebellion

too complicated.

• Light manpower law would allow 1 unit per Pop with smaller production and growth rate debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and father standing with two children
• Standard manpower law could allow 3 units per Pop with stardard production and growth debuffs per levied unit, icon: Mother and child waving at a soldier
• Scraping the barrel for manpower would allow 5 units per Pop with high production debuff and greatly reduced growth rate, icon: Mother reaching out toward 2 soldiers

Either POPs or cohorts (or both) would need to be rebalanced.

• Add the ability to sell excess naval units to your traders to partially recoup build costs and boost your trade production
• Create a naval mercenary group that is your traders that is cheaper to hire but has a large trade income debuffs (like levied naval units in CK2)

what traders? use the existing pirates instead!

 

[htimsnivek]

Too complicated and could cause bugs after electons.

I hadn't thought about elections. My goal was to make sure it doesn't nerf tribal leaders or make it too hard for smaller countries without a large pool of characters to muster all of their population. This idea likely is unnecessary.

These 2 Would remove a layer of strategy (where to recruit and disband). Unanimous disagree (on both).

Teleport is a bad idea and immersion-breaking. Blackflag is fine.

I'm trying to find a balance between fun immersion and micromanagement. Levying troops at provincial or national capitals would allow you to choose exactly where you were drawing troops from then you just need to decide how immersive you want the rallying troop mechanic to be. I don't think you need to show each unit marching to join a newly levied army if it impacts game performance. Lowering levies inside my own territory doesn't need to show me each unit marching home to their Pop. Reinforcements marching to join the army near enemy lines absolutely should be a blackflag style unit that can get blocked by enemy occupations and armies. You could also scrap the teleport reinforcement mechanic and require a supporting general to rally reinforcements at a capital and march them to join the army. That same general would then march the fatigued units to home territory. Maybe a detach fatigued units button would randomly select a character from the general's family to lead the troops back home. The units shouldn't need the general to pick them up at their house or escort them each back to their settlement. You could compromise and require the general to go to each units provincial capital to pick up or return units to their Pop but that still sounds like micromanagement which I'm trying to avoid.

too complicated.

This could be simplified or scrapped for sure. It just seems more realistic that if Pops would rebel and refuse to march on after a five year campaign maybe generals would as well. The loyalty for Pops idea could be scrapped or simplified. I'm just looking for ideas to improve the completely broken civil war mechanic.

Either POPs or cohorts (or both) would need to be rebalanced.

Yes they would definitely need rebalanced. There would be fewer cohorts to prevent WWI type battles in the ancient era.

what traders? use the existing pirates instead!

I hadn't thought about local pirates. That's a great idea. Naval mercenaries are either trade ships, pirates, or another nation's navy.
Long term, I think the trade system needs an upgrade so my suggestion doesn't make sense without that.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

I'm trying to find a balance between fun immersion and micromanagement. Levying troops at provincial or national capitals would allow you to choose exactly where you were drawing troops from then you just need to decide how immersive you want the rallying troop mechanic to be. I don't think you need to show each unit marching to join a newly levied army if it impacts game performance. Lowering levies inside my own territory doesn't need to show me each unit marching home to their Pop. Reinforcements marching to join the army near enemy lines absolutely should be a blackflag style unit that can get blocked by enemy occupations and armies. You could also scrap the teleport reinforcement mechanic and require a supporting general to rally reinforcements at a capital and march them to join the army. That same general would then march the fatigued units to home territory. Maybe a detach fatigued units button would randomly select a character from the general's family to lead the troops back home. The units shouldn't need the general to pick them up at their house or escort them each back to their settlement. You could compromise and require the general to go to each units provincial capital to pick up or return units to their Pop but that still sounds like micromanagement which I'm trying to avoid.

Intercepting reinforcements is a valid way to fight an enemy army and happened historically (e.g. Battle of the Metaurus).
Game performance is tanked by too many units in the game. In the late game EVERYONE has far too many cohorts, that number should be reduced massively. That would help both game performance and immersion.

 

[htimsnivek]

Intercepting reinforcements is a valid tactic to fight an enemy army and happened historically (e.g. Battle of the Metaurus).
Game performance is tanked by too many units in the game. In the late game EVERYONE has far too many cohorts, that number should be reduced massively. That would help both game performance and immersion.

Totally agree. Requiring a character to lead every army and needing to cycle out fatigued units with reinforcements could add a lot of micromanagement. I'm leaning toward having an automated general lead reinforcement units that would try to avoid conflict but could be intercepted. Maybe the general's martial skill could influence how well they avoid conflict.

The cohort count should definitely be reduced. Having an incentive to lower levied armies could reduce the count during peace time. Also larger empires could have bigger happiness impacts from levied cohorts or nerfed manpower laws to reflect the population not being excited about sending their sons to the far reaches of the known world. That would require armies to be levied closer to the conflict so they don't use half of their standard deployment time moving from the capital to the conflict zone. That might make world conquest runs too difficult so it would need some adjustments or even extending the end date of the game.