Fate of Workers

[yarpus]

• One of the coolest things ever in 4X games is showcasing as with technological advancements, our methods to operate change drastically.
• I love how in Stellaris, over time, player moves from Worker-based economy to orbital mining and megastructures.
• BUT it happens far too fast for it to je a significant moment. At this point I rarely invest into rural districts or workers, just focus on rolling for kilostructures as early as possible.
• This leaves certain playstyles unloved and unwanted (Authoritarians, Slavery, Mechanist, Commisioners as Planet Rulers) while turning Worker efficiency bonuses into something worthless.

Proposed Solution

• Move Kilostructure technologies from Tier 2 to Tier 3 or even Tier 4.
• Alternatively: start with more limited capacity for Kilostructures. Gain more via higher tiers of tech.
• Reduce power of Starbase buildings (example: Hydroponics Bay) to make worker jobs more important during early game.
• Increase power of Ingenious/Industrious/Agrarian traits from +15% to +25% or reduce them to 1 point.
• Increase power of Strong / Very Strong traits to provide more Worker Efficiency.
• Reduce power of Subsidies edicts from +50% to +25%.
• Restore bonus to base job output to tier 1 efficiency buildings to increase power of worker efficiency % effects.
• Add Military Rural Zone focus which adds Soldiers and makes Soldiers increase the respective worker’s output.
• Make Indentured Servitude the only Slavery type which allows slaves to work actual jobs.
• Make Chattel Slavery turn Slaves into Laborers, Domestic Servitude turn slaves into Servants and Battle Thralls turn them into Thralls.
• Optionally make these specialized slavery types available via dedicated buildings instead of Policy for more granular control.

Expected Results

• Workers remain relevant part of population until mid game.
• Strategies that rely on worker’s efficiency provide certain advangages during early game.
• Slavery is now more useful.

 

[Nerisande]

The whole economic system of Stellaris is built around the idea that you want as much specialists as possible because specialists produce resources that really matter: science, alloys and unity. Other resources are used only for upkeep, there is no need to maximize their production up to infinity so it is very obvious that if you are doing things well your empire would be urbanized pretty fast.
Also you forget about one important thing: vassals. There is no need to bother with upkeep resource production when you can just conquer some aliens and tax them.
And rural districts screw Ecumenopoli construction (and you want them since they are OP).

• Move Kilostructure technologies from Tier 2 to Tier 3 or even Tier 4.
• Alternatively: start with more limited capacity for Kilostructures. Gain more via higher tiers of tech.

They aren't that strong, but it is useful instrument for situations when you have not so much planets. And sometimes I just don't have some good stars (with at least 4 EC) except starting system (that is why you should use unary systems while creating empire) if we talk about Dyson Arrays.

• Increase power of Ingenious/Industrious/Agrarian traits from +15% to +25% or reduce them to 1 point.
• Increase power of Strong / Very Strong traits to provide more Worker Efficiency.

That is reasonable, the whole trait system need some refinement. The bulk of species traits is just meme-tier filler suitable only for roleplay.

 

[yarpus]

The whole economic system of Stellaris is built around the idea that you want as much specialists as possible because specialists produce resources that really matter: science, alloys and unity. Other resources are used only for upkeep, there is no need to maximize their production up to infinity so it is very obvious that if you are doing things well your empire would be urbanized pretty fast.
Also you forget about one important thing: vassals. There is no need to bother with upkeep resource production when you can just conquer some aliens and tax them.
And rural districts screw Ecumenopoli construction (and you want them since they are OP).

They aren't that strong, but it is useful instrument for situations when you have not so much planets. And sometimes I just don't have some good stars (with at least 4 EC) except starting system (that is why you should use unary systems while creating empire) if we talk about Dyson Arrays.

That is reasonable, the whole trait system need some refinement. The bulk of species traits is just meme-tier filler suitable only for roleplay.

Of course, I wholeheartedly agree. I just believe that you should not be able to achieve full-specialist economy Year 1, it should happen somewhere around the midgame. Proposed changes do not solve that issue fully but at least give us basic support for workers.

 

[Nakkivene]

The new planetary upkeep system could perhaps be tuned for this purpose. But the new specialization system even more heavily favours minimal workers, I think.

 

[Nerisande]

I just believe that you should not be able to achieve full-specialist economy Year 1, it should happen somewhere around the midgame.

In 4.0 (at least for me) getting rid of workers became harder because trade rework. No free energy out of nowhere anymore. Well, trade can be used for... trade, but the prices are growing too fast, so it is more temporary mechanism of avoiding shortages/overproduction, but not a stable way of getting resources.

 

[Cleaving3]

All worker-level employees of Orbis Customer Synergies enjoy and all expenses paid luxury retirement to the Synaptic Lathe.
Lathe vacations, a trip your mind will never forget.
Lathe vacations is a subsidiary of Orbis Customer Synergies, All Rights Reserved

 

[WJJellO]

The way that pop efficiency gains and planet specializations work in 4.0, I actually find the relative value of pops to spaceborne structures is much, *much* higher in 4.0 than in 3.14:
-All specialist jobs have buildings and planet ascensions that increase output, reduce upkeep, or both.
-Scientists can convert primary and strategic resources to large amounts of extra science.
-Workers can convert trade to large amounts of primary and strategic resources.
In late game, with specialized planets, excess trade, and the pops to fill jobs, the per-pop output of most jobs is staggeringly high. Enough to easily dwarf kilostructures.

 

[BrokenSky]

Proposed Solution

• Move Kilostructure technologies from Tier 2 to Tier 3 or even Tier 4.
• Alternatively: start with more limited capacity for Kilostructures. Gain more via higher tiers of tech.

Honestly I think it would be pretty cool if these Kilostructure T2 techs unlocked a limit 1 and only the first level (proto-type), and building the first level gave a guarenteed T3 tech option for a second tech which unlocked the upgrades and building a fully upgraded one would then give a guarenteed T4 tech option which would increase your capacity by 2 or 3.

Sort of show the progression from Prototype to Finished Design to General usage?

 

[ShoGuL]

In 4.0 (at least for me) getting rid of workers became harder because trade rework. No free energy out of nowhere anymore. Well, trade can be used for... trade, but the prices are growing too fast, so it is more temporary mechanism of avoiding shortages/overproduction, but not a stable way of getting resources.

Maybe it's because I've exclusively played (literally 100+ hours of) gestalt empires since 4.0 which has given me bad planet-upkeep trade ptsd, but super specialized planets is now something I avoid at all costs. Gestalts 'trade value' jobs never changes or gets better, you get like 5 trade value per 100 workers, it's by far the worst value job a worker can do after the first few years (it's okay for buying minerals in the first decade, but after that...).

The amount of logistics drones you need as a gestalt empire to support a specialized late game planet is ridiculous.

Maybe standard empires are swimming in trade value, idk, but for gestalts every planet must sustain itself as much as possible, the only thing I accept as deficits is strategic resources -- and even then, I did a couple of Nanite runs and importing a thousand+ nanites to support my late game research worlds ended up costing me well over ten thousand in trade deficits.

TL;DR:
At least as a gestalt enjoyer, my #1 priority is to make up for any shortage locally while specializing as much as I can, only THEN do I care about the empire wide budget... that means pure energy/mineral/food worlds are now a thing of the past (except biological ships where you use food to build them).

The most obvious result is that machine worlds and hive worlds are now S++++ tier, I'll take them over the other end game options any day of the week, the ability to adjust your local production without constraints to specialize while covering local upkeep is invaluable.

 

[Nerisande]

Maybe it's because I've exclusively played (literally 100+ hours of) gestalt empires since 4.0 which has given me bad planet-upkeep trade ptsd, but super specialized planets is now something I avoid at all costs.

I am from individualist enjoyer side instead and I can say that the trade penalty on planet deficits is not much an issue, it is countered by having a lot of upkeep reduction modifiers. You may fall into trade deficit, but currently there is no penalty for trade shortages (maybe only that using market becomes a bit harder), so you can ignore it. Don't know is it working as intended or PDS just forgot to add shortage situation.

 

[-Marauder-]

Honestly I think it would be pretty cool if these Kilostructure T2 techs unlocked a limit 1 and only the first level (proto-type), and building the first level gave a guarenteed T3 tech option for a second tech which unlocked the upgrades and building a fully upgraded one would then give a guarenteed T4 tech option which would increase your capacity by 2 or 3.

Sort of show the progression from Prototype to Finished Design to General usage?

Only if it also increased efficiency and lowered costs. Because right now for example Dyson Swarms are much weaker than they used to be and not really worth building outside of "special" deposits.

 

[Egodeus]

Maybe it's because I've exclusively played (literally 100+ hours of) gestalt empires since 4.0 which has given me bad planet-upkeep trade ptsd, but super specialized planets is now something I avoid at all costs. Gestalts 'trade value' jobs never changes or gets better, you get like 5 trade value per 100 workers, it's by far the worst value job a worker can do after the first few years (it's okay for buying minerals in the first decade, but after that...).

The amount of logistics drones you need as a gestalt empire to support a specialized late game planet is ridiculous.

Maybe standard empires are swimming in trade value, idk, but for gestalts every planet must sustain itself as much as possible, the only thing I accept as deficits is strategic resources -- and even then, I did a couple of Nanite runs and importing a thousand+ nanites to support my late game research worlds ended up costing me well over ten thousand in trade deficits.

TL;DR:
At least as a gestalt enjoyer, my #1 priority is to make up for any shortage locally while specializing as much as I can, only THEN do I care about the empire wide budget... that means pure energy/mineral/food worlds are now a thing of the past (except biological ships where you use food to build them).

The most obvious result is that machine worlds and hive worlds are now S++++ tier, I'll take them over the other end game options any day of the week, the ability to adjust your local production without constraints to specialize while covering local upkeep is invaluable.

I am myself a Gestalt enjoyer as well, but my Devouring Swarm has been easily able to specialize almost every planet up to now. I only have a single Nest World dedicated to producing Trade as well as a few dedicated basic resource worlds with urban specializations into trade and the relevant support specialization and I'm swimming in trade. They might not all be 100% specialized, but most planets only have a handful of districts that aren't of the main type they are meant for. I'm not at the computer I have the game so I can't get you any real numbers, but it's not like you are actually forced into having only generalist planets as a gestalt.

 

[GloatingSwine]

In 4.0 (at least for me) getting rid of workers became harder because trade rework. No free energy out of nowhere anymore. Well, trade can be used for... trade, but the prices are growing too fast, so it is more temporary mechanism of avoiding shortages/overproduction, but not a stable way of getting resources.

Trade still gives you free energy (or consumer goods/unity).

Trade is, in fact, cracked. My current game is a megacorp and the only reason I haven't totally abandoned workers is because I'm doing catalytic/anglers with bioships so I need loads of food (ocean paradise though, so that's no problem). If I was a standard economy I'd just pop out some serious space mining, as it is I even ignored the ruined matter decompressor two systems from my capital because nothing says "corporate profligacy" like refusing to even claim a system with a megastructure in because it's the wrong one.

But I transitioned over to an almost totally trade based economy basically immediately. Dropped consumer goods, just bought them off the market until Marketplace of Better Ideas, dropped minerals, dropped energy, just buy them off the market. I'm hitting the endgame now and I own 8 systems, 2 planets, 2 habitats, and I reckon I can build to about 3k naval cap, the only reason I'm building more habs is to stuff them with soldiers to get more space monsters. I make 4k trade income after buying everything I don't bother producing.

 

[Nabil ad Dajjal]

I like how the economy transitions from a pyramid with a base of farmers, miners, and technicians supporting a smaller number of specialists to a more 'modern' economy with a smaller fraction of workers producing huge resource surpluses to support an urban majority. It's a classic industrial transition story.

(Civilians make this gel a bit better with the near-future setting. You can read them as either peasants or an unemployed 'basic income ' underclass depending on flavor of SF)

It also helps that rural districts get more to do as tech advances. Farmers producing exotic gas or farm districts supporting biologists makes it more attractive to keep rural districts even without a relevant civic.