Female Succession in Africa Makes Zero Sense and Needs to be Removed from the Game

[Anonymous01]

Equal Succession and Female-preference Succession dominate CK3's Central African cultures and titles. They're also present in about half of West African cultures and in the Nubian cultures of East Africa.

This is 100% ahistorical.

Rather than bore you with historical citations, I'll simply point to the Developers' own evidence: CK3's history files ONLY feature men rulers in every African region throughout the entire game period. With the SOLE exception of the Dauras.

Further, Equal Succession and Female-Preference are very disruptive to gameplay. They cause extreme bordergore for the ai, creating chronically weak states. And they force players to exploit matrilineal marriages which is also generally ahistorical.

I suspect that Developers included equal and female-preference successions in the region as an attempt to model matrilineal descent. But there are 2 major problems if so:

• 1. Matrilineal Descent does NOT mean women rulers. It simply means men rulers inherit by right of their mother's dynasty rather than their father's. So if that's what Developers were going for, they've completely misunderstood and confused things.

• 2. Further, CK3's succession algorithm has NOT been designed to handle the complexities of matrilineal descent (aka "Uterine Succession").

Therefore Paradox CK3 Devs, this attempt, while interesting, effectively constitutes a huge bug that affects 25% of the game map.

Please just remove it and set everything in the region to Agnatic (male-only) or Agnatic-Cognatic (male-preference).

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I’ll admit that I don’t know much subsaharan Africa, but it does seem to be less patriarchal than Europe and the Islamic world in medieval times.

In the first century AD, Nubia was ruled by a woman. There was a king, but he was considered too sacred for political duties. I don’t know if that tradition survived the Christianization of Nubia or not. I assume it probably did.

 

[Anonymous01]

I’ll admit that I don’t know much subsaharan Africa, but it does seem to be less patriarchal than Europe and the Islamic world in medieval times.

In the first century AD, Nubia was ruled by a woman. There was a king, but he was considered too sacred for political duties. I don’t know if that tradition survived the Christianization of Nubia or not. I assume it probably did.

Not less patriarchal. Many parts of Europe and Asia allowed women to wield power through regency.

That's still extremely different from female-preference succession.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Not less patriarchal. Many parts of Europe and Asia allowed women to wield power through regency.

That's still extremely different from female-preference succession.

Allowing power through a regency is a different beast than being a less patriarchal society.

 

[Anonymous01]

Allowing power through a regency is a different beast than being a less patriarchal society.

For which you've provided no evidence whatsoever.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

For which you've provided no evidence whatsoever.

Neither have you. Women didn’t automatically get the regency. And a less patriarchal society would mean that a woman could have some political power without it being tied to either a male ruler or lack of brothers. Married women rulers often times had their power really wielded by their husbands.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Female-preference succession dominates CK3's Central African cultures and titles. It's also present in about half of West African cultures and in the Nubian cultures of East Africa.

This is 100% ahistorical.

Rather than bore you with historical citations, I'll simply point to the Developers' own evidence: CK3's history files ONLY feature men rulers in every African region throughout the entire game period. With the SOLE exception of the Dauras.

Further, female-preference is very disruptive to gameplay. It causes extreme bordergore for the ai, creating chronically weak states. And it forces players to exploit matrilineal marriages which is also generally ahistorical.

I suspect that Developers included female-preference succession in the region because they were trying to model matrilineal descent. But there are 2 major problems if so:

• 1. Matrilineal Descent does NOT mean women rulers. It simply means men rulers inherit by right of their mother's dynasty rather than their father's. So if that's what Developers were going for, they've completely misunderstood and confused things.

• 2. Further, CK3's succession algorithm has NOT been designed to handle the complexities of matrilineal descent (aka "Uterine Succession).

Therefore Paradox CK3 Devs, this attempt, while interesting, effectively constitutes a huge bug that affects 25% of the game map.

Please just remove it and set everything in the region to Agnatic (male-only) or Agnatic-Cognatic (male-preference).

867 start: ignoring Islamic states
On a not totally scientific survey of the 867 start : West Africa appears to be Equal, or Male Preference.

Central seems to be mostly Male Preference, with some Equal. Akans are Female Preference though.

Moving to the East, the Nubians and Daju seem to have gone with Female Preference, but the other East African groups seem to be Male Preference.


It might need a somewhat more critical eye to check the numbers properly, but after a quick check I would not agree that it "dominates" the Central African cultures.

 

[Anonymous01]

867 start: ignoring Islamic states
On a not totally scientific survey of the 867 start : West Africa appears to be Equal, or Male Preference.

Central seems to be mostly Male Preference, with some Equal. Akans are Female Preference though.

Moving to the East, the Nubians and Daju seem to have gone with Female Preference, but the other East African groups seem to be Male Preference.


It might need a somewhat more critical eye to check the numbers properly, but after a quick check I would not agree that it "dominates" the Central African cultures.

I intended Full Cognatic ("Equal Succession") to be included in the same ahistorical pot as "Female Preference." That's my mistake. I will edit my title and OP to reflect that.

But the point stands: there's no historical justification for female succession of either type in the region, and the gameplay issues caused by it are glaring.

 

[Anonymous01]

Women didn’t automatically get the regency.

In the pre-Christian Kushite states you referenced, women indeed automatically controlled the regency on behalf of their sons, as was historically the case in many African, Asian, and European states. It is in fact still the case by law in Eswatini and common practice in several modern-day European monarchies.

You seem to be thinking of TV shows like Game of Thrones rather than any examples of historical custom.

 

[elvain]

in many African societies, the succession was indirect and the heir usually was ruler's matrilineal nephew (not sure about the term) or, to be precise:
the next ruler was the eldest SON of previous ruler's eldest sister. So although the succession has always (or almost always) passed on to male members of the dynasty, it was matrilineal.

This worked famously in Nubia, among the Beja (and in both cases it eventually contributed to the Arabs taking over both societies), it was present among the Saharan Berbers/Amazigh, even after they adopted islam, and few others Sub-Saharan societies.

There were several attempts to convince the devs to introduce this type of succession as unique succession type, but IIRC there were several technical/gameplay obstacles which eventually led to the setup that exists now. It's not accurate and there were several demands to have this fixed, but the generally stronger role of women in some African societies deffinitely was a historical fact.

In fact, I remember that in the early months of CK3, there was a user of Akan origin complaining that the Akans should not be equal preference as they were originally, but instead they insisted that the Akans must be matriarchal.

Many things in Africa are not very accurate, or actually quite inaccurate and many African societies deffinitely should have different succession. OTOH the bigger role of women generally in maintaining the social order as well as in inheritance was - in many African cultures, although not all - a historical fact.

I'm not sure about the total ballance all across the map, but at least those cultures that were mentioned above do have some historical basis for greater female influence on things. Historically it certainly didn't work the way as it is portrayed in the game. It was much more diverse and it either touched different aspects of society than inheritance, or it influenced inheritance differently than how it is in the game.

So generally I can't say I like or agree with the current setup, but neither can I support a claim that it is "100% ahistorical".

 

[AchedTeacher]

Not less patriarchal. Many parts of Europe and Asia allowed women to wield power through regency.

That's still extremely different from female-preference succession.

No African state starts with female preference. As OP states, it's equal at most.

I stand corrected.

 

[GhostDanny]

No African state starts with female preference. As OP states, it's equal at most.

Daurama Daura does get an event at the start to switch from equal to female preference.

 

[naq29]

Not less patriarchal. Many parts of Europe and Asia allowed women to wield power through regency.

That's still extremely different from female-preference succession.

But only Europe allowed men to wield power through their wives. Because in other parts of the worlds wives had no power in the first place.

 

[newtlord]

in many African societies, the succession was indirect and the heir usually was ruler's matrilineal nephew (not sure about the term) or, to be precise:
the next ruler was the eldest SON of previous ruler's eldest sister. So although the succession has always (or almost always) passed on to male members of the dynasty, it was matrilineal.

This worked famously in Nubia, among the Beja (and in both cases it eventually contributed to the Arabs taking over both societies), it was present among the Saharan Berbers/Amazigh, even after they adopted islam, and few others Sub-Saharan societies.

There were several attempts to convince the devs to introduce this type of succession as unique succession type, but IIRC there were several technical/gameplay obstacles which eventually led to the setup that exists now. It's not accurate and there were several demands to have this fixed, but the generally stronger role of women in some African societies deffinitely was a historical fact.

In fact, I remember that in the early months of CK3, there was a user of Akan origin complaining that the Akans should not be equal preference as they were originally, but instead they insisted that the Akans must be matriarchal.

Many things in Africa are not very accurate, or actually quite inaccurate and many African societies deffinitely should have different succession. OTOH the bigger role of women generally in maintaining the social order as well as in inheritance was - in many African cultures, although not all - a historical fact.

I'm not sure about the total ballance all across the map, but at least those cultures that were mentioned above do have some historical basis for greater female influence on things. Historically it certainly didn't work the way as it is portrayed in the game. It was much more diverse and it either touched different aspects of society than inheritance, or it influenced inheritance differently than how it is in the game.

So generally I can't say I like or agree with the current setup, but neither can I support a claim that it is "100% ahistorical".

A thoughtful and nuanced take on the situation? Is that allowed on this forum?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

But only Europe allowed men to wield power through their wives. Because in other parts of the worlds wives had no power in the first place.

The power of women in most societies was determined mainly on the influence that they could exert on men, who were the nominal rulers. A woman leading a regency would be her making decision based on the male ruler being unable to make the necessary decisions on his own, whether because of mental illness, being underage, or another factor that prevents the male from making the decisions. Regencies were not necessarily held by a woman. When a woman married, the expectation is the husband would be the de facto ruler of her lands.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

In the pre-Christian Kushite states you referenced, women indeed automatically controlled the regency on behalf of their sons, as was historically the case in many African, Asian, and European states. It is in fact still the case by law in Eswatini and common practice in several modern-day European monarchies.

You seem to be thinking of TV shows like Game of Thrones rather than any examples of historical custom.

In European states it was often undefined as to who the legal regent would be.
Sometimes it was the mother. Sometimes it was an uncle. Sometimes it was a council of the powerful nobles.
It certainly wasn't "automatic" in Europe, especially when you consider that there are two types of regency required - who is ruling the country (the actual regent), and who is bringing up the child ruler (their guardian). The mother wouls usually get the latter, and might get the former, but that would depend on the will left by the previous king, and political shenanigans.

To the best of my knowledge in most current European monarchies the regent is usually the next adult in line to the throne, and the surviving parent generally acts as guardian.


Basically it's not as universal as you seem to be making out.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

No African state starts with female preference. As OP states, it's equal at most.

At least some of the Akans, Nubians, and Daju start with female preference in 867.

There might be a couple of other groups, since I didn't go through and check literally everyone.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

During the first shogunate, the Kamakura shogunate, the shoguns were the regents for the emperor. Yet they were in turn puppets for a regency. The Hojo clan had established a monopoly on the regency. The Ashikaga shogunate that ended up following the Kamakura shogunate tended to be a lot like feudal Europe. The regency was in the hands of men, not women.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

There were several attempts to convince the devs to introduce this type of succession as unique succession type, but IIRC there were several technical/gameplay obstacles which eventually led to the setup that exists now

Hmm, what are the gameplay obstacles? I'd think it wouldn't be very tough to design a succession system where nephews of the ruler interit

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Hmm, what are the gameplay obstacles? I'd think it wouldn't be very tough to design a succession system where nephews of the ruler interit

I think that maybe it could potentially create a pseudo primogeniture super early, though now non tribal and feudal governments have the ability to bypass partition. Is his land split between the sons of all of his sisters, or just his eldest? I believe currently in game for male preference, if a ruler dies without legitimate kids, all of his brother (if any any) are dead and don’t have legitimate offspring, and his eldest sister is dead, than all of his titles pass to his eldest sister’s eldest legitimate son.