fighting against subs

[Beagá]

I don't play Germany - I am the RN. CVEs or DD-ASW absolutely do not beat subs - subs annihilate them, "with losses occasionally" as you say. Planes (sometimes) find subs, the ships immediately join the fight, the sub takes no damage (usually) and kills 1-3 DDs (always). So that doesn't actually make planes very useful, they just facilitate getting my DDs killed off. If they did noticeable damage to subs, or if DDs could fight back, sure, they'd be great.

Yes, subs did lots of damage. They also got sunk in massive numbers when aircraft and/or DDs actually found them. The first part is reflected well, the second part is not reflected at all.

Hehe well it does take practice but it´s not that tough. The trick is using "big" fleets (more than 3 destroyer flotillas, up to 10) and if possible with CVE and air support; and up-to-date doctrines. Small fleets indeed get slaughtered since damage will be focused. And using spotter leaders help finding flottilas ASAP. Are you playing or Hard or Very Hard? In Normal I have no problems at all.

 

[jhhowell]

Hehe well it does take practice but it´s not that tough. The trick is using "big" fleets (more than 3 destroyer flotillas, up to 10) and if possible with CVE and air support; and up-to-date doctrines. Small fleets indeed get slaughtered since damage will be focused. And using spotter leaders help finding flottilas ASAP. Are you playing or Hard or Very Hard? In Normal I have no problems at all.

Normal. Though I was using 3xDD fleets, or Argus+2xDD that one time. The reduced command limits in CORE led me to think that a rear admiral with three DDs was the intended ASW group, which is consistent with what AI UK seemed to be doing in my US game.

From what I'm seeing, it seems like all one has to do is wait it out. For a while the German AI will be interested in their subs and will slaughter your DDs and kill a bunch of convoy points. Then it will decide to do ... something, not sure what - some suicidal bombing activity like you mentioned in the other thread - and the Atlantic will become really quiet. Which is great for replenishing one's DD numbers and getting CVEs into service in case the German AI ever decides to pay attention to their submarines again. I wish I could say the German AI was diligently preparing for Barbarossa, but it's mid-July '41 and nothing is happening.

My fleet carriers do have at least half of my U-boat kills, though I'm reluctant to risk them on deliberate ASW use - the kills they have were accidental contacts during regular naval interdiction patrols in the North Sea. Btw, what's the deal with AoD not implementing the Naval Combat Patrol mission? You can select it, but it will just cover an individual sea zone just like Naval Interdiction.

 

[Blecky]

... Btw, what's the deal with AoD not implementing the Naval Combat Patrol mission? You can select it, but it will just cover an individual sea zone just like Naval Interdiction.

AFAIK Naval Interdiction is directed against surface fleets, whereas Naval Combat Patrol will engage anything you come across: surface ships, subs, or convoys. It should be less likely to contact any of these with NCP compared to the missions that only focus on one aspect.

 

[jhhowell]

AFAIK Naval Interdiction is directed against surface fleets, whereas Naval Combat Patrol will engage anything you come across: surface ships, subs, or convoys. It should be less likely to contact any of these with NCP compared to the missions that only focus on one aspect.

Ah, thanks. I was expecting the HOI2 behavior where NCP covers several regions, while NI covers just one region but with higher odds of spotting things.

 

[lollibast]

some grave digging here, if you allow...

I played both, UK and GER (and ITA) to see both sides of the battle of the atlantic and can confirm everything that has been said and would like to add:
subs are beasts early and mid game, in late game they are cannonfodder for the following reasons:
detection values make the difference. DDs on their own are helpless. CVs turn the tides, put one CV and some DD-ASW together and they will deliver. thats why the battle for the atlantic is over once the US joins with the fight and UK had time to dish out some CVs
as subs don't change in visibility from older to newer versions but anti-subs have increased subdetection and firing range with ever upgrade the advantage is shifted towards anti-subs. however, as subs get stronger sea attack they can still annihilate SAGs w/o CVs or ASW capability (CTFs are imba, they just stay out of every fight due to range but thats another question I brought up in another thread) easily

so as GER: get lots of subs early on (only short range, they are stronger while having enough range for convoy raiding anyway), group them in stacks of 3, activate "fight at all cost" and equip with seawolf rear admirals. put on convoy raiding and kiss allied convoys goodbye while shredding SAGs that happen to find you and see your commanders levels rise to 8 or 9 eventually. beware of occasional harassment by NAVs and see to get some air-to-surface missiles until the US joins at witch point you should use those planes to keep your coasts clear of enemy CTFs and if you have air supremacy over britain, clear those ports of the RN. if you did it properly, you will have sunk 1000s of convoys and be able to starve out the UK

as UK: see that you get the important techs fast: ASW and CV techs. build CVs and DD-ASW only. have groups of 1CV+some DDs as you like and have them go on ASW duty. help them spot with NAVs. you will have losses no doubt early on but once your DDs outrange the subs you just need to find them (which is not that easy, admittedly)

its a tough one for both sides but if you commit enough resources victory will be yours

in the meds, as ITA, things are weird. I still havent figured out how convoy escorting efficiency and convoy raiding exactly add up. I havent been able to get decent raiding results with ITA eg. I had a stack of 10 subs (which makes for tremendous convoyraiding points added up) raiding in a specific seazone but kept getting a message that it spotted a convoy that was too heavily protected while i kept getting my convoys sunk all over despite NAV-NA and CAS-NA patrolling the meds. lacking techteams don't help ITA here I guess