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Finnish civil war

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Background:
http://united-states.asinah.net/american-encyclopedia/wikipedia/c/ci/civil_war_in_finland.html

I'll check more sources soon, and copy&edit the stuff into here.
Timeline:
Political:
6.12.1917
-Finnish parliament(or whatever) votes for independence
31.12.1917
-After some political games, the finns finally decide to ask the Bolshevik government of Russia for independence, which after some hazzle aknowledge Finland as a sovereign state.
4.1.1918
-This time officially.
6.1.1918
-And Sweden follows;
7.1.1918
-As does France, Germany and few days after a crapload of 2nd world class countries.

Other:
December-January 1917-1918
-Red guard(commies) and White Guard both organize. Red guard goes on a rampage threathening the government officials.
6.12.1917
-Germans send the transport ship Equity to deliver weapons for the White Guard, unfortunately only a portion of the 20 000 rifles, 50 machineguns and 600 pistols arrive to the destination.

15.1.1918
-Mannerheim ?chief of army?


Important events:
During war:
-Battle for Tampere
-The white and red terror
-German's arrive
-Soviet Union helps the communists

After war:
-Fight against bolshevism?
-Shoot the communist traitors/have mercy

Forces
It has been estimated that the communist had around 100 000 men, of which 70 000 were in the frontlines. The Whites had around 70 000 men, of which 35 000 in frontline.

Apart from the German Baltic division and the Jaegars who later came to help of the White, both sides should only have militia divisions. This would represent the fact that Finland had not had an army of any kind for 100 years, and the armed forces consisted mostly of...well militia.



White ministers:
As of 30.1.1918

Renvall - chairman, trade issues, church(religious issues)
Arajärvi - Financial issues, ?means of transportation?
Frey - internal and ?legal/justice? issues
Pehkonen - farming and ?victuals?

As of 23.3.1918
Svinhufvud arrives in Vaasa and becomes the chairman.

There's also two more issues:
Mannerheim, not sure what he should be(chief of army?), also some swedish volunteers helped in organization...
 
Last edited:
Date should be sometime after Finland is created...

(And I still do not understand the erratic behaviour of Allenby)
 
Perkele,
you state that for the Finland and other units should be militia only. Why? with the state of the war at the time alot of units would be, but with all men trained prior and during the great war wouldn't a good % be useful as regulars. Russia was pretty good at using finland as a conscription and officer source. look at finlands leadership after the war and in the second world war.
 
Actually, Finland did have a good deal of officers, but what comes to the 'conscription' it didn't work. The finns didn't simply show up, and as a result there were only some sharpshooter battalions, and by time not even those.
 
The Finnish populace was mainly consisting of farmers with very much hunting experience, the soil relatively poor and requiring a lot of work for people to get food on to their tables. So they knew how to shoot, better than their central-european neighbours, atleast in general, and they were used to hardship and independant thought - with the curious Finnish way of applying it - the boss-man was truly and always a boss-man. Thus they were in many ways ideal for soldiering. Much as were the best soldiers all around the world. So militia is maybe a bit downsiding for the troops of the time. Sure the Finnish armies weren't organized too well, but in the battlefield they seemed to know what to do. The armies weaponry consisted for many of old fashioned hunting rifles and old relics of russian army rifles, so not too fancy in that manner. Then to not over idealize the situation: they also had the militia way of acting towards defeat in battle - when the red side was faced with the battle-hardened Jägers that fought in an orderly fashion, they obviously were fear-stricken, never having seen such a way of fighting. But all in all, they were propably closer to being regular army level in fighting skills, but less in organizational abilities. - this is my personal point of view
 
okay, did some reading. Most of the battles were fought with battalion level, or smaller, units. Even in the bigger offensives there was only 1 or maximum of two infantry divisions worth troops. So, I was thinking that maybe we should do some 'special techs' for Finland? Mainly I was thinking of insteda of giving Finland an infantry/guard division when the jaegars arrive, we could increase the stats of militia(or infantry) units, this is to represent the fact that Jaegars didn't fight as a single force.
 
Allenby, has the Finnish lobby returned? Because things like special techs just for Finland sound a lot like something the old Finnish Guard would have come up with.
 
The other solution would be creating special finnish units, that would represent battalion/regiment size units. So I think a simple tech could do it better.
 
I'd strongly recommend simply using divisions - considering the scale of the game. Militia divisions and either reservists, regulars or light divisions for the better troops. (Jãgers would be light divisions, I presume)

Sure, these men might actually be split into smaller detachments, but when each HoI province represents hundreds of square kilometres it's much simpler to say "OK, there were about 20,000 men fighting in this region, so give them two divisions" That would fit with what we've done in other situations in the mod.

Once you move away from the simple HoI system and start adding complicated rules for special one-off situations, there'd be no end to it...
 
StephenT said:
Once you move away from the simple HoI system and start adding complicated rules for special one-off situations, there'd be no end to it...
Click to expand...

Quite so. Nation specific techs haven't appeared for any great powers, so if some had to be specially designed for the Finnish civil war, then I would feel somewhat obliged to create something similar for the likes of Germany and Britain, not to mention the Ulster Volunteers and the Senussi tribesmen. :)


Zuckergußgebäck said:
(And I still do not understand the erratic behaviour of Allenby)
Click to expand...

Not so much erratic, more a case of being impressed by someone offering to create an entire event chain out of the civil war, as well as accompanying minister and leader files. :)
 
I guess a simple extra infantry division will have to do.

Im reading a book by Anthony F. Upton, it has about 500 pages and it's only part 1. So it will tkae some time before I can make up the necessary stuff, but on the other hand it should be easy to find the ministers etc.

In another question: is it possible to create units in enemy territory trough events?
 
Perkele said:
In another question: is it possible to create units in enemy territory trough events?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. :)

Code: 
command = { type = add_division which = militia when = <province ID> }
 
Are the units created with 0 org? Im just thinking if it's possible to create them so that they start to fight immediatly...as for example the province of Viipuri was controlled by both sides...
 
Enlightened myself a bit, and decided that maybe it would be best made so, that Red forces will be mostly militia with maybe 1 regular division(representing the russian volunteers/leadership), and whites have half militia, half regulars representing the Jaegars and the fact that most officers who served in the Russian army joined the white army.

Now, how should the soviet garrisons be represented? Historically they were disarmed and demobilized quite quickly. To be honest, some of them had already demobilized themselfs. I'd go with simple events like this(for soviets):
"The finns have surrounded our garrison in X province, what should we do:
a) Surrender
-gain x manpower
-finns gain some supplies
b)fight 'em to death
-lose x manpower
-dissent??
-finns lose x manpower"
 
Perkele said:
"The finns have surrounded our garrison in X province, what should we do:
a) Surrender
-gain x manpower
-finns gain some supplies
b)fight 'em to death
-lose x manpower
-dissent??
-finns lose x manpower"
Click to expand...

Would this trigger when the garrison troops own a certain province and the Finns occupy the all the adjacent ones?

For if the 'surrender' option was selected, the units in the province in question would still be there and would probably offer a fight if attacked...
 
I ment that the garrison troops are abstracted. The russian player can either choose to get manpower or nothing...
 
Perkele said:
Anyways, how should we do triggering of these events? Specific date, or just trigger them some time after independent Finland is created?
Click to expand...

Whatever you believe is sufficient. :) Are you familiar with the events through which Finland achieves independence?
 
Not sure...to my undrestanding the independence is triggered by the commie revolution, or actually by the Lenin makes peace thingie.

Which shoulnd't actually be the case since Finland gained it's indpendence trough other means.
 
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