In CK2, China is represented as a single political entity. While this isn't accurate, I'm not suggesting that this is to change as that would entail a bit too much work to be worthwhile.
Currently, the ruling dynasties of China are:
Mongol Invasion: Fall of Jin, Southern Song, and Rise of Yuan
Since an additional Empire cannot be added I suggest the following changes to the title history
Song (960-1127)
Jin (1127-1234)
Song (1234-1271)
Yuan (1271-1337)
Add the branch of Taizu (which is currently missing) making them landless courtiers in the Western Protectorate. (1)
Once the last Jin Emperor is dead, let the members of the Taizu branch gain the Empire of China again.
Again, I'm not suggesting actually including both empires so if a player starts their game between 1127-1220 (Mongol Invasion start date) simply kill off all living members of house Zhou using the ”returned home” death and assume that Jin conquered the south as well. After the game has started it's alt-history after all.
However, starting in 1220 there is not only a Genghis Khan and Mongol Empire with event troops on the map, there is also an ongoing Mongol invasion of China. If you're playing as Genghis Khan the invasion always fails, if you're not playing as him the invasion succeeds. It's a decent way to give the AI Mongols a boost, represent the rise of the Yuan dynasty while still forcing a player to manually invade China should they want to. It can be improved though.
Division of the Mongol Empire
As mentioned the Toluid Civil War is represented by simply having Ariq Böke being the ruler of Mongolia between 1260-1266. If the player starts between those dates, Kublai will be in his court, hate his guts, have a strong claim and be his successor if he dies. There is no need for anything further, especially since there is no start date between those years.
The Kaidu-Kublai War is different though. A thirty year war involving all the Mongol successor states can't simply be glossed over. Here's my suggestion on how to represent it:
Between 1227 and 1260, the Golden Horde, Changatai, and Ilkhanate are all tributaries to the Mongol Empire. Between 1260 and 1271, they are tributaries to Mongolia. After 1271, the Golden Horde and Mongolia are independent, Changatai is a tributary to Mongolia and Ilkhanate is a tributary to the Western Protectorate (Yuan).
There are no events to direct the war as that would make it needlessly convulated. Neither will any progress be simulated if starting in the middle (for example 1289) as there is no ticking war score during these invasions (simply up to 50 % from occupations and up to 100 % from battles).
And finally, all Mongol Emperors of China should be given temple names that they are currently lacking!
Jurchen & Khitan, Jin & Liao, Wanyan & Yelü
This is a shorter version from a thread regarding of an overhaul of Nomadism as a whole. The reason I'm including this here is that I consider it a vital fix that should be implemented whether or not my other suggestions in said thread is to be included. It's also a much quicker fix than the one I'm suggesting there. Finally, it gives me an excuse to link to the other thread hopefully increasing its exposure. And yes, that was three links to the same thread in one paragraph!
Fix for the Liao, Yelü, Kara-Khitai debaucle:
Historically, the Liao dynasty was destroyed by the Jurchen Jin dynasty, forcing the Khitan west under Yelü Dashi, calling their new realm Kara-Khitai. The Jin dynasty was headed by the Wanyan clan. Before that, the Wanyans were subordinates of the Liao dynasty which in Horse Lords was represented as them being a vassal clan. This, unfortunately, makes them Khitan rather than Jurchen. To add insult to injury, once Jade Dragon was released the now Jurchen Wanyan clan is added as rulers of China, properly called the Jin Empire, however the Jurchen Wanyans are a completely separate dynasty from the Khitan Wanyan.
Fix for the duplicate house of Wanyan:
Currently, the ruling dynasties of China are:
581 - 907
House ******** Dynasty ****** Years
Yang ********** Sui ************ 581-618
Li ************* Tang *********** 618-690
Wu *********** Zhou ********** 690-705
Li ************* Tang *********** 705-907
There are two start dates in this period, 769 and 867, both during which the Tang dynasty is in charge. The current representation is adequate.
907 - 960
No ruler. It's meant to represent the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period starting with the fall of Tang and the rise of Song. This situation can't occur naturally in game but since there is no start date between those years, it's no problem.
960 - 1337
House ******** Dynasty ****** Years
Zhou ********** Song ********* 960-1127
Wanyan ******* Jin *********** 1127-1234
Borjigin ******* Yuan ********* 1234-1337
This is trickier, there are multiple start dates in this period (every date between 1066-1337) and for large parts of this period China could be divided in two parts, north and south. While the Song dynasty did indeed lose the northern parts to the Jurchen Jin dynasty in 1127, they retained the south until 1279. That's over a century and a half that's missing in CK2, as the Song actually survived the Jin! Also, while 1234 is an accurate date for the fall of the Jin dynasty, it's not an accurate date for the ascension of the Yuan which occurred in 1271 under Kublai Khan (who admittedly included the previous Great Khans of the Mongol Empire as Emperors of China). However, starting in 1234 should not have Ögedei as Emperor of China; he should be Mongol Emperor with the China being ruled by the Song dynasty.
House ******** Dynasty ****** Years
Yang ********** Sui ************ 581-618
Li ************* Tang *********** 618-690
Wu *********** Zhou ********** 690-705
Li ************* Tang *********** 705-907
There are two start dates in this period, 769 and 867, both during which the Tang dynasty is in charge. The current representation is adequate.
907 - 960
No ruler. It's meant to represent the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period starting with the fall of Tang and the rise of Song. This situation can't occur naturally in game but since there is no start date between those years, it's no problem.
960 - 1337
House ******** Dynasty ****** Years
Zhou ********** Song ********* 960-1127
Wanyan ******* Jin *********** 1127-1234
Borjigin ******* Yuan ********* 1234-1337
This is trickier, there are multiple start dates in this period (every date between 1066-1337) and for large parts of this period China could be divided in two parts, north and south. While the Song dynasty did indeed lose the northern parts to the Jurchen Jin dynasty in 1127, they retained the south until 1279. That's over a century and a half that's missing in CK2, as the Song actually survived the Jin! Also, while 1234 is an accurate date for the fall of the Jin dynasty, it's not an accurate date for the ascension of the Yuan which occurred in 1271 under Kublai Khan (who admittedly included the previous Great Khans of the Mongol Empire as Emperors of China). However, starting in 1234 should not have Ögedei as Emperor of China; he should be Mongol Emperor with the China being ruled by the Song dynasty.
North China:
South China
Song (960-1127)
Jin (1127-1234)
Yuan (1234-END)
Jin (1127-1234)
Yuan (1234-END)
South China
Song (960-1271)
Yuan (1271-1368)
Ming (1368-END)
Yuan (1271-1368)
Ming (1368-END)
Mongol Invasion: Fall of Jin, Southern Song, and Rise of Yuan
Since an additional Empire cannot be added I suggest the following changes to the title history
Song (960-1127)
Jin (1127-1234)
Song (1234-1271)
Yuan (1271-1337)
Add the branch of Taizu (which is currently missing) making them landless courtiers in the Western Protectorate. (1)
Once the last Jin Emperor is dead, let the members of the Taizu branch gain the Empire of China again.
Again, I'm not suggesting actually including both empires so if a player starts their game between 1127-1220 (Mongol Invasion start date) simply kill off all living members of house Zhou using the ”returned home” death and assume that Jin conquered the south as well. After the game has started it's alt-history after all.
However, starting in 1220 there is not only a Genghis Khan and Mongol Empire with event troops on the map, there is also an ongoing Mongol invasion of China. If you're playing as Genghis Khan the invasion always fails, if you're not playing as him the invasion succeeds. It's a decent way to give the AI Mongols a boost, represent the rise of the Yuan dynasty while still forcing a player to manually invade China should they want to. It can be improved though.
Instead of failing the invasion if you're playing as Genghis Khan (which quite frankly is inaccurate and somewhat confusing and dramatically peculiar as the event sates that the Great Khan died) simply remove the previously mentioned start up death script for house Zhou (living members being Zhao Kuo, Zhao Yun) while giving all members a ”can't marry” flag. Replacing the event stating that the Mongols failed, you'll receive a specially tailored event stating that the Jin has fallen and that your victorious warriors return, with the close button stating that the Song Empire awaits in the south. The event will give the Mongols additional event troops (can be balanced by removing some of the original) as well as gold and prestige, and will kill off the Jin dynasty. Zhao Kuo will become the new Emperor of China (or Zhao Yun, if Zhao Kuo has died). In the unlikely event that they've both died a new son is generated for Zhao Kuo (as is always done for Emperors of China) making him the new Emperor. The game will then progress as normally.
If Genghis Khan is played by the AI, I've got no problem with killing off the remaining members of house Zhou and letting the event play out ordinarily: spawn additional son for Genghis Khan. If a specially tailored event is created, it should say that the Jin as fallen, the Mongol Khagan sits upon the Dragon Throne as Emperor XXX Borjigin, the Song remnats are likely to cause trouble in the south. Possibly, instead of killing off house Zhou, its members can become chinese style adventurers instead (as those normally created by an ousted dynasty).
If Genghis Khan is played by the AI, I've got no problem with killing off the remaining members of house Zhou and letting the event play out ordinarily: spawn additional son for Genghis Khan. If a specially tailored event is created, it should say that the Jin as fallen, the Mongol Khagan sits upon the Dragon Throne as Emperor XXX Borjigin, the Song remnats are likely to cause trouble in the south. Possibly, instead of killing off house Zhou, its members can become chinese style adventurers instead (as those normally created by an ousted dynasty).
As already mentioned in this bug report, the title history for Mongolia is a bit confused or even bugged. With the Yuan Empire changed as to being established by Kublai Khan in 1271, let's keep the Mongol Empire after Genghis Khan's death. Let Ögedei, Güyük and Mönke be rulers of the Mongol Empire instead of China, with the Golden Horde, Chagatai and Ilkhanate as tributaries. Since the game is confused by having rulers being both Emperors of China and having titles on the map, we want to avoid giving Kublai Khan the Mongol Empire or any others titles. Therefor, let the Mongol Empire be destroyed after Mönke's death, give the kingdom of Mongolia (with the Mongol Empire's vassals and clans) to Ariq Böke between 1260-1266 (representing the Toluid Civil War) and to Kaidu between 1266-1301. (2)
Let Kublai remain an unlanded courtier throughout the game first in Mongol Empire (until 1260), then in Mongolia (until 1271), after finally becoming Emperor in 1271.
If Jade Dragon is disabled, he instead becomes a courtier in the Western Protectorate after 1271 while also giving him the highest possible appointment score, ensuring he inherits it after the death of Protector General Chigu Bailjar. It's an adequate solution for those without Jade Dragon.
Let Kublai remain an unlanded courtier throughout the game first in Mongol Empire (until 1260), then in Mongolia (until 1271), after finally becoming Emperor in 1271.
If Jade Dragon is disabled, he instead becomes a courtier in the Western Protectorate after 1271 while also giving him the highest possible appointment score, ensuring he inherits it after the death of Protector General Chigu Bailjar. It's an adequate solution for those without Jade Dragon.
Division of the Mongol Empire
As mentioned the Toluid Civil War is represented by simply having Ariq Böke being the ruler of Mongolia between 1260-1266. If the player starts between those dates, Kublai will be in his court, hate his guts, have a strong claim and be his successor if he dies. There is no need for anything further, especially since there is no start date between those years.
The Kaidu-Kublai War is different though. A thirty year war involving all the Mongol successor states can't simply be glossed over. Here's my suggestion on how to represent it:
Detach Kaidu's father Khashi from the Borjigin house making his descendants (Kaidu, Chapar, Kuthulun and Orus) a cadet branch named Ögedeid. The reason I've elected not to include Ögedei himself and all his descendants to this cadet branch is that the cadet branches aren't an actual feature in the game, it messes up inheritance and can result in a surprising game over for players. Having a tiny Ögedeid leaf instead of an entire branch is better. Also making a fully fledged Ögedeid branch would force us to make Changataid and Jochid branches as well to be consistent. All of this is open to further suggestions; the goal is that Kaidu and Kublai are of different houses. (3)
Between 1227 and 1260, the Golden Horde, Changatai, and Ilkhanate are all tributaries to the Mongol Empire. Between 1260 and 1271, they are tributaries to Mongolia. After 1271, the Golden Horde and Mongolia are independent, Changatai is a tributary to Mongolia and Ilkhanate is a tributary to the Western Protectorate (Yuan).
If Jade Dragon is active, between the years 1271-1301 a war is waged between Kaidu of Mongolia and Yuan China. This is an actual war, not an event based as those based on China's status (”Invaded by Mongols” and ”Invaded by Jurchens”) which were discussed earlier. The causus belli is the one used to invade China and install your dynasty (which was the reason for implementing the Ögedei branch of the Borjigin).
The war then, is Kaidu of Mongolia attempting to install his second son Orus (it can't be Chapar due to Chapar being his primary heir) as the Emperor of China. The Changatai are supporting Kaidu due to them being a tributary, the Golden Horde are supporting Kaidu due to alliance. Yuan is defended by the Protectorate as usual both with event troops and those of their actual realm in Tibet. Also joining the Protectorate are their tributaries, in particular the Ilkhanate.
The war then, is Kaidu of Mongolia attempting to install his second son Orus (it can't be Chapar due to Chapar being his primary heir) as the Emperor of China. The Changatai are supporting Kaidu due to them being a tributary, the Golden Horde are supporting Kaidu due to alliance. Yuan is defended by the Protectorate as usual both with event troops and those of their actual realm in Tibet. Also joining the Protectorate are their tributaries, in particular the Ilkhanate.
There are no events to direct the war as that would make it needlessly convulated. Neither will any progress be simulated if starting in the middle (for example 1289) as there is no ticking war score during these invasions (simply up to 50 % from occupations and up to 100 % from battles).
Nothing out of the ordinary will occur after the war either. Should Kaidu win, then Kublai Khan will be killed and Orus will be installed as a new ruler of house Ögedei and Kaidu will receive the usual prestge/gold/grace reward. Possibly the Yuan name can be retained for China, but if this is not possible, then it's no big deal. In any case, this scenario is quite unlikely.
Should Kublai Khan win, Mongolia will be shattered. Since Kaidu is a nomad a new title will be created for him and his Ögedei clan but his vassals, the clans Buryat and Naiman will become independent (and gain new nomad realms as well) and his settled Uyghyr vassals in Karashar and Kashgar will become independent as well. Afterwards, all of these realms will be easy pickings for the Golden Horde, Changatai and an Expansive Yuan dynasty. Again, no follow up events are needed. This scenario is quite likely.
Should Kublai Khan win, Mongolia will be shattered. Since Kaidu is a nomad a new title will be created for him and his Ögedei clan but his vassals, the clans Buryat and Naiman will become independent (and gain new nomad realms as well) and his settled Uyghyr vassals in Karashar and Kashgar will become independent as well. Afterwards, all of these realms will be easy pickings for the Golden Horde, Changatai and an Expansive Yuan dynasty. Again, no follow up events are needed. This scenario is quite likely.
If the player starts after 1301, after the war historically ended, then Kaidu should be killed and his realm destroyed. All subsequent rulers in what was previously Mongolia will be tribal instead of Nomad, meaning that Kaidu's successor Chapar will be the tribal duke of Khangai, the Buryat will be the tribal duke of Ötüken and the Naiman will be the tribal duke of Ikh Bogd. The feudal Uyghurs in Karashar and Kashgar will be unchanged. All these new dukes will be vassals to the Western Protectorate. No future rulers will hold the Kingdom of Mongolia, instead the Protector General is to be considered the governor of the Lingbei province.
The Buryats of Ötüken and the Naimans of Ikh Bogd will remain in tribal vassals of the Western Protectorate until 1337. When Chapar dies in 1309 an appropriate new Mongol house will take over the duchy of Khangai ruling it until 1337. Khangai, as well as Karashar and Kashgar, will remain vassals to the Western Protectorate until 1337.
The Buryats of Ötüken and the Naimans of Ikh Bogd will remain in tribal vassals of the Western Protectorate until 1337. When Chapar dies in 1309 an appropriate new Mongol house will take over the duchy of Khangai ruling it until 1337. Khangai, as well as Karashar and Kashgar, will remain vassals to the Western Protectorate until 1337.
And finally, all Mongol Emperors of China should be given temple names that they are currently lacking!
Jurchen & Khitan, Jin & Liao, Wanyan & Yelü
This is a shorter version from a thread regarding of an overhaul of Nomadism as a whole. The reason I'm including this here is that I consider it a vital fix that should be implemented whether or not my other suggestions in said thread is to be included. It's also a much quicker fix than the one I'm suggesting there. Finally, it gives me an excuse to link to the other thread hopefully increasing its exposure. And yes, that was three links to the same thread in one paragraph!
Liao Dynasty
House Liao holds the Kingdom of Mongolia between 1066 and about 1100. With Horse Lords enabled they gain the titular Empire of Mongolia, which is referred to in game as the Liao Khaganate since the Khitan culture names their realms after dynasty in game.
Their rulers:
Liao Zongzhen of Mongolia [Liao]
Liao Hongji of Mongolia [Liao]
Liao Yanxi of Mongolia [Liao]
Kara Khitai
Starting in about 1140, the Kingdom of Transoxiana is held by house Kara-Khitai. With Horse Lords enabled they gain the titular Empire of Transoxiana, which is referred to in game as the Kara-Khitai Khaganate for the same reasons as stated above.
Their rulers:
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Dashi” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Yillie” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Zhilugu” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Obviously this is the setup created with Horse Lords before China and the difference between dynasty names and clan names had been introduced. Perhaps this sort of crude solution was the only one possible. However, it's about time it gets addressed.
House Liao holds the Kingdom of Mongolia between 1066 and about 1100. With Horse Lords enabled they gain the titular Empire of Mongolia, which is referred to in game as the Liao Khaganate since the Khitan culture names their realms after dynasty in game.
Their rulers:
Liao Zongzhen of Mongolia [Liao]
Liao Hongji of Mongolia [Liao]
Liao Yanxi of Mongolia [Liao]
Kara Khitai
Starting in about 1140, the Kingdom of Transoxiana is held by house Kara-Khitai. With Horse Lords enabled they gain the titular Empire of Transoxiana, which is referred to in game as the Kara-Khitai Khaganate for the same reasons as stated above.
Their rulers:
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Dashi” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Yillie” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Kara-Khitai “Yelü-Zhilugu” of Transoxiana [Kara-Khitai]
Obviously this is the setup created with Horse Lords before China and the difference between dynasty names and clan names had been introduced. Perhaps this sort of crude solution was the only one possible. However, it's about time it gets addressed.
Fix for the Liao, Yelü, Kara-Khitai debaucle:
- Attach Yelü-Dashi of house Kara-Khitai to the secondary branch house Liao (creating a few filler characters if necessary).
- Remove the first part of the double names for all former members of house Kara-Khitai if the double name starts with “Yelü”.
- Rename house of Liao to house of Yelü. Delete the empty house of Kara-Khitai.
- Remove “Uses dynasty name as realm title” from Khitan culture
- Either:
- Let Mongolia be called Khitan under a Khitan ruler.
- Give all Khitan members of Mongolia a titular kingdom called Liao instead.
- Give Yelü Dashi and all his decedents a titular empire called Kara-Khitai instead of Transoxiana.
Historically, the Liao dynasty was destroyed by the Jurchen Jin dynasty, forcing the Khitan west under Yelü Dashi, calling their new realm Kara-Khitai. The Jin dynasty was headed by the Wanyan clan. Before that, the Wanyans were subordinates of the Liao dynasty which in Horse Lords was represented as them being a vassal clan. This, unfortunately, makes them Khitan rather than Jurchen. To add insult to injury, once Jade Dragon was released the now Jurchen Wanyan clan is added as rulers of China, properly called the Jin Empire, however the Jurchen Wanyans are a completely separate dynasty from the Khitan Wanyan.
Fix for the duplicate house of Wanyan:
- Make the Wanyan clan under Liao (ca 1066-1100) independent
- Make the new Wanyan realm a tributary to Liao
- Change their culture to Jurchen
- Merge this house with the Jurchen house of Wanyan ruling China between 1127-1234. This is likely a little bit more work than simply attaching one branch to another as the two separate houses contemporaries. Still, considering that the Khitan house under Liao only has 6 members, it shouldn't be too hard.
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