Flag, tag changes

[TheArchduke]

Especially the Hanseatic League and the UoK are in need of those.

The later parts of EU2 saw the comming of nation states and such with more centralized states and so on, shouldn't for instance the union of Kalmar and the Hanseatic League get options to reshape themselves into some sort of kingdoms/nations as the game commences (if it's not in allready admitedly I've not played the latest version and I've not yet finnished my entire first game as the UoK). With the current settup I kind of get the feeling of being stuck in the middle ages as time commences, wouldn't the kings, leaders, etc of the union have tried to create a more modern nation state given the opertunity rather than a union of states? (possibly with a brand new cool flag as well and probably with some conditions along the lines of having to have reconquered norway for instance)

So what you guys think?

 

[Johan]

UoK if owning Norway and >1700 ? --> Kingdom of Scandinavia ?
Hanseatic -> Kingdom of Saxony?

 

[TheArchduke]

UoK if owning Norway and >1700 ? --> Kingdom of Scandinavia?

Exactly, any idea for a flag for them?

Hanseatic -> Kingdom of Saxony?

I need to work this out more, but I am tending to Northern German Union or even German Republic.

 

[Johan]

Check my avatar for flag

I was thinking of the ancient realms of Saxony.. (ie, northwestern germany..)
Since a strong Bavaria would argue that they would be germans as well..

And if you coalesce into a nation-state, you need a definite national identity.. Saxons would work, maybe some other old name also..

 

[TheArchduke]

Check my avatar for flag

I see, I will redirect Birger Jarl to your avatar and ask him for that.

Would you connect it strongly to Norway being subdued by the UoK?

I was thinking of the ancient realms of Saxony.. (ie, northwestern germany..)
Since a strong Bavaria would argue that they would be germans as well..

And if you coalesce into a nation-state, you need a definite national identity.. Saxons would work, maybe some other old name also..

Well, the Hansa would be a republic and Bavaria a strong monarchy, this kind of division would work.

Saxony has the strongest case there, too, but would be too far astray with the current hanseatic background. I am not sure here.

 

[Johan]

I see, I will redirect Birger Jarl to your avatar and ask him for that.

Would you connect it strongly to Norway being subdued by the UoK?



Well, the Hansa would be a republic and Bavaria a strong monarchy, this kind of division would work.

Saxony has the strongest case there, too, but would be too far astray with the current hanseatic background. I am not sure here.

I think UoK needs to defeat Scotland completely and gain Norway to become Scandinavia.

 

[TheArchduke]

I think UoK needs to defeat Scotland completely and gain Norway to become Scandinavia.

Sounds like a plan. I will ask Nikolaj if we need any barrier time-wise, too.

1650 or 1700 sounds good.

 

[TheArchduke]

Big cryout by Hive, that the Swedish crownes shouldn't be in the middle of the shield here.

I think he is right, but how to do it else? Have Denmark, Norway and Sweden all in corners as shields? Or some other good idea?

 

[Nikolai II]

Big cryout by Hive, that the Swedish crownes shouldn't be in the middle of the shield here.

I think he is right, but how to do it else? Have Denmark, Norway and Sweden all in corners as shields? Or some other good idea?

I agree, Denmark was the superior partner in UoK so if anything then three lions in the center..

But plain cross flag is good, although it should probably be like this

but with yellow instead of blue in the center cross.

 

[Johan]

Big cryout by Hive, that the Swedish crownes shouldn't be in the middle of the shield here.

clueless danish anti-scandinavian propaganda..

the 3 crown is the only symbol USED by both denmark and sweden the last 500 yeaas.

 

[TheArchduke]

Is Nikolaj II proposal good, too?

Else I will prolly go with the flag from Johan as it looks good.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

How about having that Johan's avatar's flag for the shield and then taking Nikolai II's idea for the flag? Three little crowns will likely be very small in EU2 flag, but they would show nicely in the shield. Meanwhile a cross flag in the shield (which represents the nation's coat of arms, right?) would not be so good.

 

[Nikolai II]

That sounds reasonable - esp since it is supposedly 'Three kingdoms into one' by that time (simplest prerequisites, no Norway and year .. hmm 1700+? I'll Have to take a closer look) so a three-crowns type of shield should do nicely, although yellow on red might be better (and less likely to incite comments about 'pro-swedishism'

 

[Johan]

Make both the shield and the flag "Three yellow crowns on red".
It would have the dominant red color of the danes, while still having the three crowns of Denmark, Sweden and Norway...

 

[Hive]

clueless danish anti-scandinavian propaganda..

the 3 crown is the only symbol USED by both denmark and sweden the last 500 yeaas.

Denmark used the 3 crowns for a while, which prompted angry Swedes to use our 3 lions in return... so one could argue that the 3 lions from our CoA would be just as accurate.

At any rate, Denmark didn't use 3 crowns on a BLUE background...

And afaik, the Union of Kalmar didn't use neither 3 crowns nor 3 lions - Denmark and Sweden did, 2 nations within the union; but not the union itself.

 

[Trin Tragula]

How about the family coat of arms of the dynasty you envision to be the rulers of the union at that time? (I suppose that by then they've stopped electing their kings)

Also after the union transforms into a scandinavian kingdom, shouldn't Norway, Denmark and Sweden be possible revolters?

 

[Medicine Man]

Well... I'm not going to touch the Scandinavian flag debate, if y'all don't mind. But I do have a few comments regarding the Kingdom of Scandinavia idea:

First -- Cool idea. This is what I'm interested in Abe for.
Second -- We do need a cut off date for the Union to be made. I suggest 1419-1500 start, 1600-1650 end date. If we don't put a cut-off in, it will be technically impossible for Scotland to "win" the struggle for Norway (ie. he'll always have to watch his back). For the same reason, we should eventually look at Scotland's generals to make sure he isn't totally outclassed vis-a-vis UoK. Ideally, a human player Scotland should and a human player UoK should both have an even chance of winning in Scandinavia.

I also like the idea of the Hanseatic League becoming a more continental power, although I'm not wild about them having to lose their other possessions to do so. If a human player is doing really well, he should have the possibility of eating his cake and having it too -- just like every other country, now that I think of it.

What I'd really like to see, is a sort of anti-HRE coalition headed by the Hanse during Abe's equivalent of the 30YW. This coalition could develop into a Protestant state, perhaps even shifting the culture of many northern provinces to something other than german (hanseatic perhaps).

By the same token, it should be possible for Bavaria to just paste the whole lot of them and form a super-HRE. I think all of these are fun things to do in SP and valid goals in MP.

Cheers.

 

[Nikolai II]

Well... I'm not going to touch the Scandinavian flag debate, if y'all don't mind. But I do have a few comments regarding the Kingdom of Scandinavia idea:

First -- Cool idea. This is what I'm interested in Abe for.
Second -- We do need a cut off date for the Union to be made. I suggest 1419-1500 start, 1600-1650 end date. If we don't put a cut-off in, it will be technically impossible for Scotland to "win" the struggle for Norway (ie. he'll always have to watch his back). For the same reason, we should eventually look at Scotland's generals to make sure he isn't totally outclassed vis-a-vis UoK. Ideally, a human player Scotland should and a human player UoK should both have an even chance of winning in Scandinavia.

So far the discussion has sounded more like an 'Act of Union' event if UoK owns sizable parts of Norway (and Norway doesn't exist) or possibly has Norway as vassal. The event shouldn't affect Scotland at all, since UoK already has (and usually keeps) cores on Norway, but doesn't (as now) inherit Norway.

If Scotland wants to hold/keep Norway he'll have to do just what UoK does, kill Norway.. Possibly an event for a Norway with only a few (1-2) scandinavian provinces left to be inherited by Scotland (a), UoK (b) or fight on (c) could be added.

 

[Johan]

There's inheritance events for Scotland to get Norway.

 

[TheArchduke]

Three yellow crowns on red. Sounds nice and easy, we will see how it looks.

Imo the event should be like the act of union event by England, only needing Oslo to trigger, whilst Scotland still can fight for Norway. Fighting for Norway will never be economically viable, but any Scot worth his salt should do so.