Fog of Information: Relationships and Limited Information

[Negru Voda]

I doubt that this is gonna be seriously considered, but here goes:


In this game you play a single person, that rules other ppl. Often times the success of a rulers rule depended on the quality of the information he or she had about the world.

I would like to see this implemented in the game to a certain degree.

Specifically I would like there to be a system of ambitions and secret ambitions, much like the one in EU:ROME


------Ambitions would be pretty straight forward: Things that a courtier would like to see done. Commonly oriented ambitions would bring courtiers together, maybe even make common factions.
In Rome the ambitions often gave a static loyalty hit with the ruler. I think in CK2 the size of the hit should be in relation to the courtier's power and influence. (ie: If you are the lowest of low courtiers, with negative prestige, then you are not likely to start up trouble with the Emperor of Europe). Some characters will have no ambition at all, simulating them to be content. Characters with the content trait have a low chance of gaining an ambition, whereas the ambitious trait does the opposite.


------Secret ambitions is where the fog of information kicks in. Some characters will develop secret ambitions. Usually these characters will be the stronger players: Such as your high courtiers and rulers. These ambitions will not be apparent to the player character. Your intrigue value will check against other characters, and, if you are a perceptive character you can see what the secret ambition is. If you have a loyal spymaster, he might rattle out on your courtiers (but will not reveal his own ambition, unless he is your friend).
Secret ambitions should have no effect on character loyalties, instead they should allow for significant and powerful events to fire if you don't spot them out before hand.

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Needless to say, the ambitions should be very complex and divers
Loyalist ambitions: Protect Ruler, Support Heir, etc.
Expansionist: War on bla bla, Assassinate Foreign Marshal, Reclaim Lost Tittle
Rebellious: Become Ruler, Assassinate Half-Brother, Declare Independence.


What say yee Paradoxians?

 

[Negru Voda]

(For some reason the forum is not accepting my edit so I'll just post it in a comment)
EDIT: Also FoI should apply to differentiatin between friendships and secret lovers.. this way you might never find out about your wife's affair with your Spymaster.

Relationship Ambitions: Lover with this guy, Friendship with that guy, Bastard with her guy.

 

[pirt]

One of my biggest wishes, too. If this game depends on characters, and therefore person to person relations, such fog of info looks almost like a must, rather than flavour.
But I can understand if PI people would have second thoughts on its effect on the 'accessibility' of the game. The game should give some hints on what can be done, which may be crippled with a strict fog system.
So, an alternative suggestion may be differentiating what can the player see and what can the character see. It is rather a RPG idea; imagine a system, where you, as the player, can go through windows and check loyalty levels and such and see who is rebellious or plotting to overthrow the ruler, or whatever, but the ruler (the character in the game) can or cannot see it depending on his traits or spying investments and accordingly can or cannot take measures. (And of course if the character can not see it, the game will not let you intervene). I think it would make nice gameplay and will be fun when it all happens in front of your eyes, but you cant do anything to prevent it because that ruler of yours is just a stupid, trusting fool.

 

[unmerged(82381)]

Not a bad idea. I agree with Pirt thought. No need to hide them from the player, especially since if the player really wants to know he can just open up the savegame file in notepad.

 

[LordofSaxony]

(For some reason the forum is not accepting my edit so I'll just post it in a comment)
EDIT: Also FoI should apply to differentiatin between friendships and secret lovers.. this way you might never find out about your wife's affair with your Spymaster.

Relationship Ambitions: Lover with this guy, Friendship with that guy, Bastard with her guy.

The King's one and only son, Philip IV, is your (the player's) pride and joy. His stats are great, he crushes enemies with ease, and he's also the next heir to the throne. The current King is old and sick, not expected to live another year, so it's good that he has such a reliable son.

[Incomes an event telling the player this isn't the King's son, but a child born from adultery]

The King gains the trait 'stressed'.
The King has a falling out with his wife.
The king dies.
Game over.

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

The King's one and only son, Philip IV, is your (the player's) pride and joy. His stats are great, he crushes enemies with ease, and he's also the next heir to the throne. The current King is old and sick, not expected to live another year, so it's good that he has such a reliable son.

[Incomes an event telling the player this isn't the King's son, but a child born from adultery]

The King gains the trait 'stressed'.
The King has a falling out with his wife.
The king dies.
Game over.

Game would hardly be over, there should be a good amount of other relatives to inherit, but yes, I see you point.

 

[LordofSaxony]

Game would hardly be over, there should be a good amount of other relatives to inherit, but yes, I see you point.

It was a joke

 

[TempestDK]

I think I suggested something similar in another thread (can't remember which). To maybe use something like 'Personality Type' from Football Manager. The type is determined depending on one or several hidden stats. This could also be used to hide non-physical traits.

F.x. in FM10, one who is 'Spineless' åersonality have '1' in his 'Pressure' stat, and one who is 'Professional' would have very high score in his 'Professionalism' score.

They have about 37 of those in FM. Problem is that only one type was selected, which meant that the 'Professional' guy, you would know what his Professionalism score was, but you had no clue what his Pressure and Sportsmanship stats were.

But maybe something like that could be used in CK2 to mask stats (until a Spymaster report can be created). F.x. one who is 'Spineless' could have the 'Weak-willed' and 'Coward' traits, while one who is 'Silver-tongued' would have a high Dilomacy stat.

This could then indicate what kind of person you are dealing with, but if you wanted the stat/trait masking lifted, you would have to send your Spymaster to create a report on the character.

 

[pirt]

The King's one and only son, Philip IV, is your (the player's) pride and joy. His stats are great, he crushes enemies with ease, and he's also the next heir to the throne. The current King is old and sick, not expected to live another year, so it's good that he has such a reliable son.

[Incomes an event telling the player this isn't the King's son, but a child born from adultery]

The King gains the trait 'stressed'.
The King has a falling out with his wife.
The king dies.
Game over.

Nice scenario, and I get the joke. But here's how I'd bend it:

The event is a plot. The queen is framed and they lie to make the king believe his true son was bastard. The event tells the player this is a plot, but the king believes the lie because he has the trait "trusting". Its king's some relative who designed this plot, to make his son, second in inheritance queue, make the new king. The relative's been the steward for some time and stole lot of money from the treasury to buy all those people included in the plot, including the spymaster. In fact, one time he got caught stealing, but you, the player, chose to keep him at the office, because besides the 'deceitful' trait he has a marvellous steward stat, and you thought, what harm he can give, he makes me heap gold. (And it was that choice of yours that gave the king 'trusting' trait). And now that retarded cousin will be the king instead of the shining prince.

So the idea here is; you see things coming, you effect them to a certain degree, but when the plot is set, it is not you, the player, who is being deceived. How clever you are and how much you know is irrelevant because all that matters is if the king buys the lie or not, and the engine checks it with his traits and circumstances etc. Thats what I mean by differentiating the character and the player.

 

[Negru Voda]

So, an alternative suggestion may be differentiating what can the player see and what can the character see.

This sounds like EU:ROME

and it will end up with you not really identifying with your character


----
Also note: this FoI idea wouldn't be for everything.. things like stats would still be available to see clearly.

It's just the agendas that shouldn't be clear imo.


----
As for the "Son turns out to be a bastard" scenario. That wouldn't be an event, it would be your intrigue check finally suceeding after years of blissful ignorance..

That's one twenty you will have wished you'd never rolled

 

[Arko]

Not a bad idea. I agree with Pirt thought. No need to hide them from the player, especially since if the player really wants to know he can just open up the savegame file in notepad.

a bit gamey to watch in the savegame... and not everyone would do that.

hiding or not hiding ? i would say hiding if i want it : it may be a choice in the difficulty settings at the beginning of the game.

at this point other options should be activate here :
f.e. complexity of economic level (from abstracted to normal) (more complex is irrelevant for CK)