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Naranjito

Second Lieutenant
Mar 26, 2018
199
0
In this thread, I will try to give ideas (with historical basis) so that developers understand a little better about the Kingdom of Castilla and Spain.

I think there are several errors, both globally and Spain, that is, at the macro level, as errors at the micro level, that is, between the Spanish provinces.

I'm going to divide it into several phases:

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level, in relation to Western Europe.
2- On the development of Castilla and its provinces (Adjustment at the micro level, equilibrium)
3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters


With the aim of adjusting a little to the reality of historical events, always knowing that it does not have to be 100% identical to the facts.

1 - On the development of Spain at a global level

It is not my intention to create a monster, or want an oversized and antihistorical Spain, but I think the level of development is not fair.

Kingdom of Castile. 277 points
Kingdom of Aragon (only Spain), 117
Kingdom of Portugal, 114

Poland-Lithuania, 488
United Kingdom, in total between England, Scotland and Ireland, over 400

France, should be around 750
Italy, about 681

All right:

Population levels.

05.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1600

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

Estimated levels of GDP per capita:

main-qimg-3557b58f7979c9d0c915cbfb146fcf51


That is, the levels of development of Pib per capita Spain between 1450 and 1600 are similar to France and Germany, so it was not particularly underdeveloped, in the first half of the game.

We have several scandalous comparisons:

1- Spain with more population and GDP than Poland-Lithuania, has less development, 382 vs 488
2- The comparison between Portugal and Spain is not adjusted either. 382 vs 114. When between population and more gdp, it could be between 6 and 9 times, between 1450 and 1600.
3- The comparison between Spain and the Nordic countries, I will not even enter
4- The comparison between Spain and the United Kingdom, also does not fit during the first half of the game. 382 vs 400. In 1500 Spain could have 40% more development and in 1600 20%. I am not against more love for the state that grew the most during the game, the United Kingdom, as more provinces, good grounds and favorable events between 1650-1800.
5- However, the comparison between Spain and France and Spain and Italy, if it fits well to reality, which is striking. Is not the small ones favored for the game? Then, why is Spain half the size of France?

This figure is unfair, it is striking how Spain is the only country well represented in relation to France or Italy. Something that does not happen with Portugal, the United Kingdom, Poland-Lithuania, the Nordic countries and practically nobody.

It is more Castilla should be the only nation underrepresented in relation to France, at least in Europe.

From the analysis of these data, for my Spain should be at the level of Poland-Lithuania, about 480-490.
It would be 20% that the United Kingdom, which seems fair if we take into account that Spain will have fewer provinces and less farmland and grassland.
And about 4 times Portugal, something that would be more realistic, and similar to what it would be at the end of the game period, 1820.
In addition, the Kingdom of Naples, its 100 points, should be won in the war and not given away (Italian Wars, I'll talk about this later).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

I also believe that France and Italy could receive 100-150 points of development separately, for balance and reality issues.


2- On the development of Castile and its provinces

If globally, Spain is poorly represented, at the micro level, there are many failures: provinces, Castilla vs. Aragon, climate, land, shortage of provinces in Castilla ...

I will try to solve issues like this:
Is la mancha the richest province in Spain with its gold mine?
Is there no winter in Spain? Is the north the coldest?
Is Rosellon or Murcia richer than Leon, Burgos or Valladolid?
Is Salamanca the richest province?
Does Catalonia have 5 times the population of Galicia?

a) Kingdom of Castilla vs Kingdom of Aragon

According to the game, the Crown of Aragon was richer than the Crown of Castile, it is reflected in the number of provinces, the density per km2, the density of development ... This is an ABERRATION, as Rosellon has more development than historical provinces from Spain as Leon, Burgos or Valladolid.

It is the most unfortunate mistake of the game, Castilla should have more density of provinces than Aragon. According to the game:
Castilla: 400,000 km2 - 26 provinces - 277 points
Aragon: 100,000 km2 - 11 provinces - 117 points.

Reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500

Castilla had around 6 times the number of inhabitants that Aragon. Even in 1820 it still has about 4 times the population.

Most of the most populated cities were in Castile:

http://exponente1.blogspot.com.es/2016/08/las-20-ciudades-mas-pobladas-del.html

More reality (pages 14 and up are the most populated cities in Europe starting from 1400):

https://books.google.es/books?id=Xi...Fell to Spain and was treated harshly&f=false

And finally, this documentation that we will use later to observe the provincial balance of Spain (page 400 onwards). This is fundamental to analyze how Spain was developed.

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

In short, Castilla should be between 380-390 and Aragon between 105-110, and being very generous with Aragon.


b) How the Crown of Castile and Spain should be established:


OK, I hope to have convinced you about the rise in Castilla's level of development.

But how to establish the development of Castile?

Were there important cities?

We will use these 3 documents:

https://castellavetula.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1829-libro-de-los-millones.pdf

Basic to understand it:
-Leon + Ponferrada = Leon
- Burgos + Tierras del Condestable = Burgos
- Trasmiera = Cantabria
-Valladolid + Conde de Benavente = Valladolid
- Asturias = Asturias
-Zamora + Toro = Zamora
-Palencia, Avila, Segovia, Toledo, Guadalajara ...
Archbishop's Office of Toledo = Toledo + Madrid + Guadalajara
- Sevilla: Sevilla + Cadiz + Huelva
-Cuenca + Huete = Cuenca
-Trujillo = Extremadura
-Ciudad Real + Campo de Calatrava = Ciudad Real or La Mancha
- Alcaraz + Campo de Montiel = Albacete
-Castilla Orden Santiago = Toledo + Ciudad Real + Albacete + Jaen
- Order of Santiago de Leon = Extremadura + Salamanca
-Murcia = Murcia + part of Albacete

Inb6jay.png


Euro-Cities_1500-1800.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_cities_in_history

That is, Granada was the most populated city in Europe in 1450, Seville was one of the most populated in Europe in almost all the development of the game, Valencia and Barcelona also remained almost always.

But not everything is the subject of the cities, since provinces such as Leon or Burgos were very populated, with a high density and did not have large cities. Galicia without large cities was also very densely populated.

For me in Castilla the highest level should be: Granada, Sevilla, Toledo, Burgos, Leon and Valladolid.
Granada is certain that it lost population, and if the Muslims of Spain are expelled, they should lose development.

Provinces that would eliminate:

La Rioja, does not appear in ancient history. Belongs to Burgos and Soria
Galicia, to divide it into 4 provinces.

New provinces:

Galicia: Santiago, Pontevedra, Lugo and orense
Castilla La Vieja: Palencia, Avila and Segovia
Leon: Zamora
Extremadura: Merida
Castilla La Nueva: Guadalajara and Albacete
Andalucia: Huelva and Malaga

Total 13-2 = 11 new provinces.

This would be approximately the map:

4821A396AE442B9D84B4C2E4C3A3C94F20A477BD


My Balance: (adjusting the size, Cantabria could be densely populated like Burgos but it is 3 times smaller)

NORTH: 34
ASTURIAS: 9
CANTABRIA: 6 (this is a miniprovince already established by the game)
VIZCAYA: 10
NAVARRA: 9 (I would put a strong)

GALICIA: 39
SANTIAGO: 11
PONTEVEDRA: 6
LUGO: 10
ORENSE: 9

CASTILLA: 72
BURGOS: 17 (very populated)
VALLADOLID: 15 (Valladolid and Medina del Campo, I would give you an expensive resource, it was almost capital)
SORIA: 10
AVILA: 10
SEGOVIA: 10
PALENCIA: 10

TOLEDO: 56
TOLEDO: 17
MADRID: 10 (would have a mission to make capital)
GUADALAJARA: 10
CUENCA: 13
CIUDAD REAL: 6 (THERE IS NO GOLD MINE, THERE IS NO, YOU MUST CREATE A CASTILLA THAT DOES NOT DEPEND ON AN NON-EXISTING GOLD MINE)

ANDALUCIA: 47
SEVILLA: 20
HUELVA: 7
CADIZ: 10
CORDOBA: 10

GRANADA: 51
GRANADA: 25 (with loss if the Muslims are cast)
MALAGA: 13
GIBRALTAR: 3
JAEN: 10

EXTREMADURA: 28 (three provinces because I do not want provinces of 20,000 km2)
CACERES: 9
BADAJOZ: 11
MERIDA: 8

LEON: 39
LEON_ 16
ZAMORA: 8
SALAMANCA: 15

MURCIA: 19
MURCIA: 8
ALMERIA: 6
ALBACETE: 5

CANARY ISLANDS: 4

KINGDOM OF CASTILLA: 386

KINGDOM OF ARAGON: 106


CATALONIA: 39
BARCELONA: 16 (with a commercial node instead of Tarragona)
GERONA: 7
URGEL: 6
TARRAGONA: 6
ROSELLON: 4 (mini-province)

VALENCIA: 35
VALENCIA: 18
CASTELLON: 6
ALICANTE: 6
BALEARIC: 5

ARAGON: 32
ZARAGOZA: 14
PYRENEES: 8
TERUEL: 10


c) Physical geography:

Spain is one of the highest regions in Europe.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Capitales_de_provincia_españolas_por_altitud

And in addition most of Spain is the Plateau, with average heights of 650 meters. It is not exactly the highlands of Scotland, I do not know if creating a new land or how to do it, but the land in Spain should be detrimental to development.
There should be few meadows, maybe only in Barcelona and Valencia. Avila and Segovia should be mountains, most of Spain would be plateau, dry land, forests and hills.

OXEeJQja8bz8tsa8K9Y1zjMAdPgemy_gEzh7DKm20spIB3HMdv7YVyCcBZaGvs59B0sZbMgk5306HD--2wZuKSWiZAKah_JjTS8yz9fVRMqsbAwfZChx15QrGzePKJUUQlxYJQ=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu


As the field must play in favor of England, must play against Spain. The Plateau are meadows but meadows at 600, 700 and 800 meters high.

d) climate

The climate according to Paradox is that in Spain there is no winter except the north, this is a mistake that implies ignorance.

argonautas-2014-grupo-3-presentacin-clima-2-638.jpg


That is, there is no winter in Andalucia, Valencia, Catalonia, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Vizcaya.

In almost all the peninsula if there is winter, in Burgos, Avila, Salamanca, Leon, Madrid, Toledo ... They would be mild winters.

It's silly but you have to change the map, it would be more like Turkey, the areas next to the Sea without winter, the interior with mild winter.

3- Missions, Ideas for the game and new characters

1. Kingdom of Naples

Alfonso V King of Aragon conquered Naples in 1442. In 1458 he died. And the Kingdom is divided among its children, Ferrante the Kingdom of Sicily and John the Kingdom of Aragon.

This is not established in the game, in 1450 the Renaissance appears in Italy, in 1490 most of Italy leaves the Empire, from 1580 the wars of religion in the Empire can explode ...

For me, this fact should be established, Aragon should not stay with Naples, which in turn should not go to the Kingdom of Castile / Spain.

And a mechanism of Italian Wars should be established,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

In short, enough to inherit the Kingdom of Naples, whoever wants to fight it.

In addition, the Kingdom of Naples is badly developed, in that rise of points to Italy, enough should go here. Naples had more population than the kingdom of Aragon as a whole (with Sicily)

2. Kingdom of Granada

Apart from the new province of Malaga and everything already spoken.

Culture should be mudejar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar

The expulsion or not of Muslims, should be a choice between the bad and worse. If they stay, more pirates from the north of Africa, less relation with Rome, less prestige (in Europe it was criticized that in Spain there were Jews and Muslims). And if they leave, less development in Granada and economic and / or commercial loss.

Also the ideas of Pomegranates should be very defensive. The war was not easy, the whole territory was very walled, the conquest of Malaga was a very hard siege and to take Granada it was necessary the cannons (powder)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_War

Likewise the conquest instead of improving the army as a reward, should give prestige and relationship with Rome (until the expulsion is requested that a few years may pass). What happened, something similar to the Conquest of Constantinople in the opposite direction.

3. Wedding Iberica

I think it should be a mission.

And from Castile, choose Portugal or Aragon.

From 1250 that remained in the peninsula 4 Kingdoms, Castile, Aragon, Portugal and Granada, always tried by real marriages the unification. The wars that were usually there were for dynastic rights, since the borders really did not touch.
I am not clear about the requirements and others for the mission, which would obviously provoke the war of Castilian succession.

In history a daughter of king and sister of the king looked for allies to reign, one with Portugal and another one with Aragon.

4. Merino sheep

Castilla had no gold mines, no gold (the colonies in South America had more silver than gold), but the best wool in the world.

A wool with which he monopolized at least until 1600. This does not appear in the game, the wool is the same as a normal one of Germany than the merino race. Something that is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
https://www.sheepandgoat.com/merinosheep

"So, what's so special about Merinos and their wool? Where do I begin? Merino sheep originated in Spain during the Middle Ages. Spain's wealth was based on fine-wooled Merino sheep. Merinos were a protected resource, so valuable that it was a capital offense to export to single sheep. It was not until Napoleon invaded Spain that the world gained access to these incredible sheep. "

5. Pirates of North Africa

They should come back in another DLC or expansion. And markets of slaves in North Africa and Ottomans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

At least Spain, Portugal, Italy and France would have to have facts and missions related to this.

6. Hispanic bankruptcy

It would create a new disaster for Spain, related to a historical event such as the suspension of payments in Spain.
It could be related to wars, rebels and loans (since bankruptcy is almost impossible in the game).

From 1560 and until 1700, if you have X numbers of loans and you are at war or there are rebels, this conflict breaks out that would cause:

Less income from taxes, production and commercial. A negative for development. All this for X years.

I do not know, something like that. This happened and you can get into the game.

7. The tercios

I would put this character,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Fernández_de_Córdoba

He was the father of the thirds.
It could be a general who contributed 1 point of monthly splendor only applicable to the thirds, in Mandate of Heaven.

8. Madrid capital

It should be a mission, if Spain has been formed, 5 or more colonies, Madrid can be capital:

+3 development, good textile (which should not have in principle for being a non-rich province) and a development modifier during X years. If you do not have common sense, then +6 or 7 of development.

9. Fleet of the Indies

I would touch this theme, making it global. That is, Holland, France, England wanted to participate in trade and Spain that was their monopoly.

There should be pirates, corsairs, Spain assigning galleons to defend the Indian fleet ... Maybe give countries like England licenses for pirates in provinces where they could shelter.

I do not know, touch this, establish a global mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeón_de_Manila
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flota_de_Indias

10. The courts of Castilla y Aragon

Here also I accept ideas to put this system of Government, where until 1700, the different parts of the Crown of Spain: Kingdom of Castile, Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Sicily and Kingdom of Naples, had their own laws and courts (parliaments).
 
Upvote 0
Yeah, Foix would be a nice addition for France, would make the south much better. Béarn is far too big.

EDIT: Changed my mind on Menorca, it's, well, quite 'minor'. I don't think it needs inclusion.
 
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France could now be given Foix province if Iberia is buffed. Labort being given to England will also make England a bit tougher for France at the beginning of the game which is good.

Perhaps Menorca could be added with low development as a way to boost Aragon and later Spain's navy? Isle of Mann is 572 km2 while Menorca is 696 km2 so no reason to believe it is too small to add. While we are at it the Kingdom of Mallorca tag would be nice. Maybe split the Canary Islands into Tenerife and Gran Canaria?
pls no more pesky islands the AI can build lvl 8 forts on
 
Really awesome work that would be amazing if Pdx would look at. However I would disagree on the province distribution. The provinces you depicted are the current late 20th Century province map. However this is far from historically accurate. For instance, check this map of the subdivisions of Kingdom of Castile in 1590.
Provinces_Crown_of_Castile_1590.svg


As you can see it has very little to do with the provinces you depicted. I understand that to make the game playable, and since the game map can't change during the game, we need to break the rules like creating the province of Gibraltar, and thus making it available for Great Britain to conquer. However IMHO we should avoid to fall in representing history with present day eyes.
 
Really awesome work that would be amazing if Pdx would look at. However I would disagree on the province distribution. The provinces you depicted are the current late 20th Century province map. However this is far from historically accurate. For instance, check this map of the subdivisions of Kingdom of Castile in 1590.
Provinces_Crown_of_Castile_1590.svg


As you can see it has very little to do with the provinces you depicted. I understand that to make the game playable, and since the game map can't change during the game, we need to break the rules like creating the province of Gibraltar, and thus making it available for Great Britain to conquer. However IMHO we should avoid to fall in representing history with present day eyes.
Regional updates should be done with the 1444-1821 administrative setup AND historical conquests in mind.

Another suggestion: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/iberia-changes-i-would-like-to-see.1080137/
The linked thread, for example, focuses on the modern distribution, something I can't agree on (and neither do the devs; they prefer historic borders).

The suggestions in this thead are based on history, first, which is the most important aspect. The suggestion of the OP and the linked one have 32 mainland provinces for Spain. I don't think that number is necessary, but it should be close, if England and India are the new standards. @Mattymooz 's map is quite good, for example. 27 mainland provinces for Spain and some good justifications why certain provinces are added or not. @RaccoonCity provided some good advice, too.

If administrative divisions are not enough to fill a map, important cities are generally looked at. So your map shouldn't be copied into the game.
 
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Really awesome work that would be amazing if Pdx would look at. However I would disagree on the province distribution. The provinces you depicted are the current late 20th Century province map. However this is far from historically accurate. For instance, check this map of the subdivisions of Kingdom of Castile in 1590.
Provinces_Crown_of_Castile_1590.svg


As you can see it has very little to do with the provinces you depicted. I understand that to make the game playable, and since the game map can't change during the game, we need to break the rules like creating the province of Gibraltar, and thus making it available for Great Britain to conquer. However IMHO we should avoid to fall in representing history with present day eyes.

Its not a matter of representing history with present day eyes its a matter of playability. You obviously cant have Salamanca as one huge massive province or Granada and Sevilla or Tolledo and then have a tiny micro province like Toro, with all that border gore.
 
Great post.
I hope Paradox listens to you. I've never understood how Galicia is just a mere 9-development province. It was one the most populated regions of Spain (just behind Andalusia). In my opinion it should be splitted in 3 o 4 provinces (including Coruña, Santiago and 1 o 2 inland) and the total development of the region around 30 or 40.
I think more provinces should be added, such as Málaga, Ávila, Segovia, Castellón (this one in Aragon) and another one between Seville and Portugal. If Huelva was rather small at the time it could be named Palos, Moguer, Niebla or even Banda Gallega (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banda_Gallega).
 
How poor was Galicia in this period, by the way? I have read some semi-reliable sources that imply it was poor with an economy primarily based on fishing and agriculture, but I couldn't really find details.
 
Why only Granada loss development if you cast out muslims? Whole area should.
Area can't consist from more than 5 provinces. Your Castilla have 6.
 
And finally the big day arrived.

Hallelujah

I hope not to see Cantabria or Rosellon with such high developments, and be able to see Burgos, Valladolid and Leon up, as befitted that stage.

Not to mention Galicia, which throughout the game had more population and development than Catalonia.