France-aggresive gambit

[unmerged(2833)]

Nay, despite most of you who enjoyed playing with me though after reading thread title, i wasn't playing France


But let's make it from the beginning. And it will be quite long story, as i broke my won war exhaustion record in MP game, when we finished i was enjoying +18 war exhaustion in non-core provinces...

Me-Austria
Ambigious-France
Che-England
Guillol-Spain

1492, as you guessed. Pretty usual set up. But what changed it was stubbornes of one player. Yes, you guessed it. Ambigious, who is known for his sky-high stubborness

(Che played almost no part in the game. Actually in the middle of it, he told he have visitor, but since he wasn't involved in The Great War, it didn't make any difference. He just enjoyed watching one of the most fun wars i ever participated in)

btw, what is wrong with English players? I mean, he went with don't reform in enclosure movement event. Why?????iT's basically free tax value increase, i don't get it...

Ok. The game begun with already growing tensions between Austria and France, and as i tried to secure alliance with Spain, France told me if i do it, he will dow me...

Seeing the war beign inevitable, i increased land DP, switched all research to landmil, hoping i would get muskets before French, and securing alliance with Wurzburg, Wurtemburg and Cologne (in addition to Bohemia).

From then, things get rolling.

In May 1492,Wurtemburg Dowed Helvetia, and i was dragged into war against it, but since Wurtemburg got leader, i just let them siege Helvetian provinces.

Shortly after that, some conversation
DarthMaur§ (Austria) eace, france
Ambiguous (France) :heheh you`ll suffer for peace after 1 year at war

Yes, i was very afraid of France.

In January 1493, France Dowed Lorraine and proptly force-annexed it. I already secured mutual understanding with Spain, he promised me cash, i told him if France Dow me, then sure i will need as much as he can supply me with.

Then, for some strange reason, in July 1493, Venice Dowed me, which proved to be very bad thing. Since from it, i wasn't at peace at all. Fortunately, Hungary dishonored alliance with Venice. The war was very quiet, Wurtemburg captured Mantua, my allies were happily attriting in Istria, and i got trouble with Venetian cavalry desant in Zeeland....

The good thing is i was able to raise war taxes in every august, and my research was progressing nicely.

In November 1493 Strasburg was dowed by France and in March next year meet the fate of Lorraine. War in the west could be felt in the air.

Meanwhile i got two nice events. Corruption one, and lowered tax value in Tirol (actually, given Tirol value is it's attriting one, it wasn't that bad event)

There was nothing hapenning in 1495. I was waiting to get muskets to assault Veneto. Or Frundsburg, whichever comes first

Here is the conversation from March 1495
DarthMaur (Austria) :france, what for do you need more troops?
Ambiguous (France) :for defending my country

Yeah, he shouldn't really built troops at the border, only if he was going to scare me... (which he did, anyway)

I made a mistake, not making peace with Venice. Because, when on 9 October, 1496, France Dowed me , i was already at war for over 3 years...

Yeah, they dowed me at last. Initial diplomatic action revealed they wanted to get Artois, Flanders, and Franche Comte. I was willing to give up French provinces, but not really Flanders...

Well, i called my Allies, France called his (Savoy, Britanny, Papal States).

(Meanwhile, Naples Dowed Papal States. I haven't even noticed it when we played...)

At firts, French overhelming troops invaded Lowlands slowy, and Franche comte too. Beign the Emperor, i retreated my troops to Austria proper, building up my army, since my treasury quickly climbed up due to gifts from Spain-indeed, financial help from Spain meant i was able to invest in research during the whole war, while Spanish and French inflation steadily climbed

In 1497, after Lowlands were lost, France annexed my ally Cologne. I was actually offering all three provinces if he won't annex it, but to no avail. Actually his response stating that i will soon don't have a border with Cologne really chilled me....

As i stated, i left Lowlands to be besieged by French. The only thing i did was extremely succesful raiding of France. I dispatched 3k of cavalry, and managed to plunder all the way from Provence, to atlantic coast, and back to Paris. Slow French forces weren't really able to catch my fast moving raiders.

And so went also the next year. During 1497, and 1498, France slowly captured Lowlands (Zeeland fell in November, 1498)

Then, in 1498, Frundsburg appeared, and was ready to take command of my enlarged army

I sent him thru Germany into Nivernais, where he won his first battle against French, and then moved on to Paris. The idea was to get some victory score, as France could soon make stab-hitting peace offers, and also relieve France of income from it's richest province, and possibly lure some French troops too.
(meanwhile, i was still plundering southern France)

December 1499 was really the month...

9 Dec, 1499, saw the fall of Paris to Von Frundsbur army

11 Dec, approaching French huge army from the other side of the river. Defences were prepared, and Frundsburg army got brand new transport of Muskets, hastily dispatched (i actually invested 200d in land research), bought by Spanish gold. It arrived just in time to when on 21 Dec, French army finally crossed the river, and huge battle begun at the wall of Paris. Given superior technology, leadership, and position, we easily won, decimating the main French army.

Meanwhile, on 18 Dec, Brandenburg and Saxony Dowed my ally. I hastily recalled von Frundsburg, seeing the opportunity in the east, knowing that French will easily rebuilt their lost army.

Jan 1500 saw the most unfortunate event. Milan went with French inheritance, effectively opening second front... Fortunately, French army there just sat at their asses, allowing me to rebuild my defences in Tirol.

Frundsburg army on his way back to Saxony assaulted and captured Brabant and Koln, leaving French something to do while i was busy in north Germany.

(meanwhile, i was still plundering southern France. Having milacces in Spain in case i would be cornered )

Then, in July 6 1500, Spain entered the war, Dowing France. We might be somewhat overconfident after the French defeat at Paris, as it turned out. Anyway, Spain decided to take active part in the war, not only supplying me with constant stream of money.

England just watched in amusement

November 1500 saw the Saxony ceding Anhalt to me, and becoming my vassal state.

Brandenburg, which enlarged itself, (Holstein and West Pommern), got more effort to subjugate.

Next two years saw me subjugating Brandenburg, capturing Milano, while France regained Lowlands and Brabant (Paris still had Austrian garrison safe in int's medium fortress, though )

Also, the war in the south, after initial Spanish gains was turning worse. Actually, in late 1502, just when i was finishing Brandenburg off, Spain proper was beign invaded by France. I promised to pull out Frundsburg soon, to relieve Spain. The war was returning to German-French border again.

And indeed, in march 1503, as Frundsburg army was marching towards Lowlands, Brandenburg was forced to cede Holstein, Magdeburg, Kustrin, and Vorpommern to Austria. Brandenburg and Saxony were annexed by Bohemia later.

In June, Brabant was captured, and Spain was happily saying that he can see my troops marching.

Frundsburg army marched all the way to Languedoc, plundering their way, and then met there, on October 3, 1503, combined French armies. The battle was extremely bloody, and ended in French victory. Frundsburg himself barely escaped alive. But the time for Spanish was bought, although at great cots. (my manpower was very small all the time...

The next few months, rebels due to war exhaustion started to appear in my northern German possesion. I let them take provinces, and retook them later, i wasn't going to waste manpower on battling them actually... (although, much later, due to the fact i didn't noticed Brandenburg wasn't there, Kustrian and Magdeburg declared independence, and Brandenburg reappeared eventually as my Vassal in Kustrin)

Also, in March 1504, Bayard was killed while he was sitting in Catalonia with mesly 4k troops. I noticed the excellent opportunity, and gave Spain a friendly advice to move his 40k cavalry from Cantabria there.

In 1505, i slowly rebuilt my lost army, and captured Holland and Zeeland (where i left small detachments when i was marching
Frundsburg to help Spaniards)

There were again a big battle in Ile de France, as i tried to relieve Paris garrison beign sieged. While i won first battle, i lost the second, but the battered French didn't continued the siege.

My now much smaller army went maneuvering around bigger French forces, plundering France as i rebuilded my forces.

On June 13, 1506, Spain signed white peace with France. They pulled out from war, but still supplied me with much needed cash, as my warchest was slowly beign emptied (mind you, i was yet to mint any cash in this game)

Later this year, i also granted independence to Mantua. Province i wasn't really needing, especially my war exhaustion was over 12 already...

I must remind you that France annexed my ally, Koln in the beginning of the war. It rebelled sometime after that, and was held by rebels. Now, France moved to siege Cologne, and my rebuilt army in Low countries moved to counter it. Frundsburg maneuvered back and fort between Zeeland and Koln, receiving reinforcements from Holland, and also Dutch mercenaries-as we needed to preserve our valuable cavalry in battle which was expected to be very bloody-there was La Palice in Brabant, with 40k troops, trying to cross the Meuse river, against mine 25k under Frundsburg. Finally, the battly begun near the rebel-held city of Cologne, and it was brilliant show from Frundsburg, who sent La Palice fleeing to Brabant with mere 10k cavalry. Of course, i pursued him.

The battle took place on march 16, 1507

Then all hell broke lose. On March 25, Baden Dowed France, and Britanny and Papal states dishonored.

Soon after La Palice was defeated again in Brabant, Britanny cancelled it's vassalization, and Dowed France too. On May, 7.

Then on May 18, Savoy, Tuscany, Genoa, Modena, The Knights alliance Dowed France, too.

Now, France was beign invaded from all sides, and unable to effectively counter all threats...

On June 8, Papal States Dowed France, too.... actually, they captured Bearn and Guyenne at one time...

Later, my allies dowed France again...





Oh well. I'm kinda tired now. Well, during few next years, France was beign steadily defeated, and rebels appeared in it's provinces, too. I lost few battles (notably, the one in Nivernais, when Badenians were late for just one day to support Frundsburg army), but won more important ones (the one in Provence, when La Palice lost his army when he attacked Frundsburg and Savoyards sieging Provence-actually, shortly after that, France has no standing army at all, and many it's provinces were controlled by it's enemies or rebels)

It's inflation was climbing too, and it went bankrupt, too. Must have made some loans. Well, here comes the story. The game ended when English player crashed in 1510, and Ambigious, French player still demanded Flanders, Franche Comte and Artois, his first peace offer.... I was going to made peace if he hand over Alsace to Baden (Cologne declared it's independence earlier)




The final point is-Austria MUST ally with Spain to counter aggresive France in 1492. Otherwise, France will be the master of Europe, at least in XVI century. I wouldn't have won this war if not Spanish support, both financial, and on some point, direct intervention.


Oh, in the end it got +18 war exhaustion in non-core. My biggest ever.

 

[Damocles]

It sounds as if you were fighting an absolutely awful French player. Just terrible. The three things I most despise in MP games are as followss:

A) The player will NEVER make peace, even if it is for a very reasonable demand. Forcing you to systematicaly go about getting a 100 percent and then rightfully taking much more. At this point, the player ussually quits.

B) The player who wins one battle and then suddenly demands four of your richest provinces, never ceasing to lower his demands no matter what.

C) ANYONE who feels the need to go bankrupt to win a war against another player...If they do this while also perpetuating one of the above idiocies, it is doubly stupid.

I, and the vast majority of the people I play with are great proponents of limited war objectives with clearly defined goals. For example, as France, I will often and rightfully, want to immediately take Franche-Comte and Artois off of Austria. Often, the Austrian player will simply write these provinces off in return for peace.

Later, I might want Flandern, whether or not I initiated the war or not. For example, when John DoWed me while I was fighting Spain and England. Even though I slaughtered his whole army and occupied the entire lowlands, all I wanted was Flandern.

Or if you're fighting Spain over Rous and you ooccupy up to Toledo. I am not going to demand, Rous, Gerona, Valencia, Toledo, etc. It'd be stupid of me. I'd just accept Rous and perhaps maps and money.

Or if I'm fighting England, I'll ask for Calais...Not Calais, Kent and Yorkshire.

Now, if they subsequently are aggressive against you, it would be proper to punish them a little bit. But the main thing is to have realistic and fair war objectives. You don't get your ass kicked and keep demanding the same three up to +18 war exhaustion.

In any case, in 1492, France has no excuse not to violate and humiliate an Austria not being heavily supported militarily by a Spanish/English invasion. In fact, the only way for France to lose is for the Austrian player to be far better then the French one.

Again, I can not but shake my head in disgust at a France going bankrupt, with Paris occupied, and still demanding the Lowlands. It is just, obscene. I feel traumatized for having read it.

In any case, good job Maur!

 

[Mowers]

I enjoyed reading that alot. A really good AAR on a topic that just cries out for analysis, however you seem to have delivered. That you managed to win is also a testament to your capability.

I'm amazed that you would actually start a game with AMBIGIOUS. Sadly I've had to place him on my banned list which is a real shame as, whilst he is a keen and fun player, he always tries to ruin a game if he loses a war. He will happily drive a country into the ground and then drop rather than just play on. Shame really but I've watched him do it a few times now and knowing that we all get mad once in a while I thought I'd just let it go as a one off. Sadly its every time. I strongly advise people not to engage in games with him as he is the epitome of a sore loser.

Everything that tear lists is extremely bad play and is sadly correct on every point. Dont engage in such beheviour. I am very tempted to start passing my banned list around. Previously I have not done so. However, Maur perhaps you would like to get in touch with me about this. Attempting to ruin my games is one thing but to go out there and ruin everyones games is very wrong.

AMBIGIOUS is again deeply guilty of ruining games because he hasnt the maturity to accept that its only a game and that losing can be a fun and learning experience.

 

[ulver]

I’ll second that big time. A great military historian (somebody help me out here?) once pointed out nations learn a hell of a lot more from their defeats then their victories. I firmly believe that to be true in war games too. In Mowers last Game England under my rather inept command got herself kicked all over and boy did I learn!

In many ways a defeat is a golden opportunity to show one’s mettle. There is a famous line in Julius Caesar (can’t quote it help me out again?) where Brutus points out he shall gain more glory and fame from his defeat then his enemies from his victory.

EDIT: Being a nerd I looked it up

“I shall gain glory by this losing day, More then Octavius and Mark Antony By this vile conquest shall attain unto.”

Is the quote I was thinking of. I’ve found you gain a lot more stature in the EU2 community from losing well then winning. And so one should.

I the game I refereed to I lost almost the entire British Empire and fought with -3 stability and almost half my country in rebel hands. I admit I was somewhat despondent but then I told myself: Did Churchill whine when facing Hitler against impossible odds? Nope, he told his people they would fight them on the beaches. This is what war gaming is all about. I was especially disappointed to hear AMB wining about losing the war and waking out despite the fact that it left him largely intact. What would queen Isabella have done in his place? Whined and abdicated? I hardly think so, she would have gritted her teeth, made a humiliating peace and later made her enemies regret the day they dared challenged the mastery of Spain. I actually think defeat is chance for a player to prove he has the spirit of a statesman and not a spoiled little boy. I take a lot of notice of how players handle adversity. Gary passed that test big-time, AMBI failed.

 

[BiB]

Being in an MP game with u lot just sounds better and better every day

 

[ulver]

Originally posted by BiB
Being in an MP game with u lot just sounds better and better every day

This is turning into something of a mutual admiration society as I, for one, am honoured to be playing with a legend like yourself. What won you over? The sentiment or the cool Shakespeare quotation?

In the latter case I’l find a way to open my next AAR with one. With a great war in the making I’m sure there’ll be something fitting in Henry V. Always my favourite for wargames.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by ulver


This is turning into something of a mutual admiration society as I, for one, am honoured to be playing with a legend like yourself. What won you over? The sentiment or the cool Shakespeare quotation?

In the latter case I’l find a way to open my next AAR with one. With a great war in the making I’m sure there’ll be something fitting in Henry V. Always my favourite for wargames.

The general views expressed on MP gaming. Though a good AAR and quote never goes amiss!

 

[ulver]

Right, I’ve just re-watched Kenneth Branagh’s Henry V on DVD and is now appropriately armed with cool quotes for tomorrows session

God I love that film. Always make me jump off the chair wanting to fight for England. (and I’m Danish)

 

[unmerged(3571)]

Originally posted by ulver
I?ll second that big time. A great military historian (somebody help me out here?) once pointed out nations learn a hell of a lot more from their defeats then their victories. I firmly believe that to be true in war games too. In Mowers last Game England under my rather inept command got herself kicked all over and boy did I learn!

In many ways a defeat is a golden opportunity to show one?s mettle. There is a famous line in Julius Caesar (can?t quote it help me out again?) where Brutus points out he shall gain more glory and fame from his defeat then his enemies from his victory.

EDIT: Being a nerd I looked it up

?I shall gain glory by this losing day, More then Octavius and Mark Antony By this vile conquest shall attain unto.?

Is the quote I was thinking of. I?ve found you gain a lot more stature in the EU2 community from losing well then winning. And so one should.

I the game I refereed to I lost almost the entire British Empire and fought with -3 stability and almost half my country in rebel hands. I admit I was somewhat despondent but then I told myself: Did Churchill whine when facing Hitler against impossible odds? Nope, he told his people they would fight them on the beaches. This is what war gaming is all about. I was especially disappointed to hear AMB wining about losing the war and waking out despite the fact that it left him largely intact. What would queen Isabella have done in his place? Whined and abdicated? I hardly think so, she would have gritted her teeth, made a humiliating peace and later made her enemies regret the day they dared challenged the mastery of Spain. I actually think defeat is chance for a player to prove he has the spirit of a statesman and not a spoiled little boy. I take a lot of notice of how players handle adversity. Gary passed that test big-time, AMBI failed.

Isn't the entire point of playing multi-player to get some decent competition? If someone wants to win all the time and just quit if they lose a war they should be playing single-player.

I've always said (in sports actually, not games) better to lose a good game than win a bad one (though I was chiefly referring to gamesmanship and cheap tactics).

The unfortunate thing here is that ambigious isn't represented in this discussion to defend himself.

 

[Prince Eugene]

You wouldn't know unless you have beat him in a war or watched someone beat him in a war...

 

[Damocles]

I'll take Maur's word for it.

 

[Prince Eugene]

unfortuantely it probably happened just as he said....

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by satan

The unfortunate thing here is that ambigious isn't represented in this discussion to defend himself.

Well I guess I didnt really mean to turn this into a witch hunt. I have a very small number of players who I just avoid. I've never publicised details or mass messaged everyone on my list of players to avoid. However, its just not that important to me and I have better things to be getting on with really.

But it does bother me when I perhaps could have saved someone else time that I didnt take action. I guess this is my little way of passing on some information.

I guess my ultimate act would be to mass message my Eu2 contact list of 200+ names but no one has irritated me enough that I would do that, even AMBIGIOUS. To be honest I feel sorry for him, life cant be much fun if you cant keep your cool over a game- sure its stressful- I hate to lose but dont we all; but one wonders what real life must be like for him.

 

[unmerged(3571)]

Originally posted by tearjn
I'll take Maur's word for it.

I didn't think Maur was actually complaining about Ambiguous's play so much as boasting about his own (not in a bad way).

Sometimes (not often) what the French player did may have been wise - it is kind of hard to look at a brief window on a game and make a judgement. There are no absolutes in a game like EU.

Still, I am being a devil's advocate here.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Prince Eugene
unfortuantely it probably happened just as he said....

Yeah, remeber he walked out on us after you forced a government collapse on him in the MGC2? We repeatedly offered him a three province deal, all provinces being French but he refused it so we just kept going and watch Spain burn.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by satan


I didn't think Maur was actually complaining about Ambiguous's play so much as boasting about his own (not in a bad way).

Sometimes (not often) what the French player did may have been wise - it is kind of hard to look at a brief window on a game and make a judgement. There are no absolutes in a game like EU.

Still, I am being a devil's advocate here.

Indeed it is hard, but this is forth story I have now heard like this. 2 of which I have personally watched.

I've seen alot of players come and go but I've never met anyone who took losing so badly.

But it does sound like Maur played a blinder

 

[unmerged(7184)]

MAUR are you finally home!?

We have to finish the game with Damocles and John, the best part of the game was only a few years away and you had to go away
Hopefully someone still has the savegame for it (I actually might)

 

[unmerged(2833)]

It was probably one of the longest posts i made, and i was so tired that i ended it prematurely, so i didn't put my afterthoughs in, only described the game.

But, step by step.

France is a monster. There is absolutly no way Austria can stand against it alone, when players have comparable skill. It is probably as hard as winning HYW as France.

There is no excuse for Austria and Spain not allied. Only then they can hope to counter France, and it's only *hope*, because even united Austria and Spain are only just strong as France in 1492. The presence of anti-Austrian Ottoman player can tip the balance again.

France, OTOH, should attack. Every passing year means Spain developing it's colonies and getting richer, and Austria securing it's position in Germany, and Hungarian inheritance closing. France position can get only worse.

England is the observing power here. It can ally both with France and with Spain. IMHO, it's main interests should be limiting colonization of both Spain and France. So war between them serves the best interests of English player. But decisive victory of either power isn't in it's best interest.

Ottoman Empire is another question. If it's human controlled, the main issue is if it have it's CB shields patched (1492 scenario have OE shields on Europe much reduced, which i think is bug)
IMO, Austria and OE doesn't necesairly have to be enemies. If OE player decides to turn south and east, leaving Hungary to Austria and securing Slavonic countries could be the basis of very strong alliance. But also alliance with France can be tempting, too.

The war itself is another matter entirely. I learned much about how to handle French-Austrian initial war, and i'm not sharing!

Ok, that's for my though i didn't write yesterday. Now to answer your thoughs


Damocles, you are right. Though human wars are completly different than against ai. The tide of the war turned many times (battles of Cologne, and Languedoc comes to mind). But it really doesn't mean anything if participants are big enough, and still have resources to rebuilt. So, there is a reason in beign stubborn. But you should judge if the situation will be worse or better-if you will lose even more, it wouldn't be unreasonable to receive 'adjusted' peace offer...
But not knowing when to sue for peace is one of the worst mistake one can make. Offering the initial peace in wildly different circumstances is going to be amusing at best.

Ben, i actually played with Ambi only once (your second campaign, when i took over Russia for few decades). I watched his Spanish government fell, and i knew he was very, very stubborn. But it wasn't especially serious game (though it might have turned into one if players would be good enough).

Though i was quite amazed how stubborn he was. I mean, one cannot go much further... wanting to collapse his goverment and losing half of already bankrupt country when the peace offer consist of ceding one province... sigh. Yes, he should change his attitude to defeats.

But i want to say it was one of the most entertaining games i played. 20 years of constant warfare against decent human player, when you can't ever be sure is very good. And it's like learing course of war tactics and war economy management (plundering southern France comes to mind)


Ulver, yes. Losing is definitly hard experience especially when in SP you win basically always. I remember that i lost two wars myself, and the feeling was exactly what you said about queen Isabella

And actually it can be one of the most enlightening experience. Get rid of your hubris, young padawan. Having your country defeated without means of retaliation surely is humbling.
As is slowly rebuilding your country (or country screwed by previous player).

Btw, is Ambigious forum member at all? Satan is right, i wasn't complaining about Ambi at all. As i said, i was enjoying this game very much, though it was fortunate that English player crashed just when the war was finally coming to end, and very bad end for France. (btw, we haven't got single crash in 20 years. Quite good, even for only 4 players)
So, yes, i was just bragging about myself.
And Ambi lacks only the ability to knowing when to surrender. His initial demands were high, but it seemed he will be able to gain it. What made me so stubborn was his words which indicated he will dow me again in 5 years...Surely, it wasn't diplomatic, it only made me more determined.
Hmmm. Actually, i think his words when we were finishing, that Spain entered the war for nothing, that it shouldn't... sigh...


Ah, yes, i'm home Quietus. Are you speaking about the game Damoclean Brandenburg behaved badly?

 

[Prince Eugene]

Originally posted by Maur13
Ben, i actually played with Ambi only once (your second campaign, when i took over Russia for few decades). I watched his Spanish government fell, and i knew he was very, very stubborn.

muhahahaha I enjoyed slowly ravaging his lands

Originally posted by Maur13
What made me so stubborn was his words which indicated he will dow me again in 5 years...Surely, it wasn't diplomatic, it only made me more determined.

I know the story he had dowed me again right after his government fell in Ben's game. It was completely ridiculous since he didn't border me anymore after all of those border nations declaring independence when his gov fell.

 

[Damocles]

Yes. There is something exhilirating to take over as a minor german state in 1492, and turn it into a protestant superpower whilst having a France, Austria and Poland neighbour .

Seeing as how it was on vhard though, I was hated by the entire world (though the universe at large still found me fairly tolerable). The BB wars by hordes of one prov minors were a pain...Until I finally had no other neighbours except well...Poland, Austria and France. Then it was an invasion of Protestant Scandinavia!

Fun game. Lost the save though when I got a new computer.