Free Cities religion

[mudcrabmerchant]

It seems kind of weird that almost everyone in the Free Cities south of Braavos is a devout follower of the Lord of Light, and acts accordingly. Gameplay wise, this is quite weird if I want to RP as a lord that doesn't in any way follow R'hllor or whatever the local cult is. If I pick a religion outside of the Essosi group, I get severe penalties to diplomacy, and it's virtually impossible to negotiate marriages

As far as I know, from the lore, very few free cities have an official established religion. As a possible future feature, I think it would improve gameplay a lot in the Free Cities if something was done to reduce the penalty for religious differences, at least for non-zealous characters. That could either be a new generic "Free Cities" religion representing a milieu of faiths among the population and disinterest among the elites, or just fiddling with modifiers to reduce penalties for Free Cities cultures with different religions.

 

[Arcvalons]

Yeah, I generally agree. While the populace in Essos seems somewhat more inclined to Rhllor, that is not the case with the Elites. Maybe have the the rulers of the cities be other religions while keeping most of the provinces Rhllor?

 

[mewzle]

Other than Volantis, which the books indicate is heavily R'hillor (or, at least the vast majority of slaves are, and they outnumber the freeholders 5 to 1), I'd be inclined to agree with this.

 

[Pokonic]

It seems kind of weird that almost everyone in the Free Cities south of Braavos is a devout follower of the Lord of Light, and acts accordingly. Gameplay wise, this is quite weird if I want to RP as a lord that doesn't in any way follow R'hllor or whatever the local cult is. If I pick a religion outside of the Essosi group, I get severe penalties to diplomacy, and it's virtually impossible to negotiate marriages

As per vanilla CK2, if you drop a Catholic in the middle of India, diplomacy is likely going to be frosty. R'hillor is noted to be alien to most Westrosi in the books themselves; I doubt a regular follower of the Faith of the Seven could stomach having a neighbor who worships the Black Goat.

As far as I know, from the lore, very few free cities have an official established religion. As a possible future feature, I think it would improve gameplay a lot in the Free Cities if something was done to reduce the penalty for religious differences, at least for non-zealous characters. That could either be a new generic "Free Cities" religion representing a milieu of faiths among the population and disinterest among the elites, or just fiddling with modifiers to reduce penalties for Free Cities cultures with different religions.

R'hillor is likely the most followed religion on Essos, if only because it's presence is noted in nearly every one of the Free Cities. Given the behavior of the Red Priests, it's rather unlikely that they tolerate the presence of other established faiths. In Westeros, for example, there's far more gods mentioned then just the Faith of the Seven; the Merling King, the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skys, and the Moon-Pale Maiden are all noted to be worshiped, likely in port cities but in decent numbers regardless. Still, that doesn't mean that Lannisport worships the Church of Starry Wisdom, even if a temple to it is present there.

As for other Essosi religions, the followers of the Black Goat are considered to be demon worshipers by the followers of the lord of light, Norvos is a theocracy that considers itself surrounded by infidels, the Bravossi are just sort of there, the priesthood of Trios occasionally demands human sacrifice, the Lorathi gods also occasionally get peopled sacrificed to them, and the Valyrian worshipers marry their cousins. Really, the worship of the Lord of Light is the only rational choice for the average Essosi. Burn them all.

Other than Volantis, which the books indicate is heavily R'hillor (or, at least the vast majority of slaves are, and they outnumber the freeholders 5 to 1), I'd be inclined to agree with this.

Thoros of Myr's backstory involves him being given over to the Red Priests as a child and being trained as one of them, which is a solid sign that the priesthood has enough sway to do so openly. Also, no other religions are specifically mentioned in relation with Myr.

A red temple is specifically mentioned to exist in Pentos, and one is mentioned to exist in IIyrio's mansion.

Lys is mentioned to also have a large red temple in it's main city. However, a specific god is mentioned in relation to Lys, that of the Weeping Lady of Lys. A rational suggestion would be to make the Lys islands proper starting out worshiping the Weeping Lady, but leave the Disputed Lands R'hillorite.

 

[SBerger]

While I would like to see more than just the Lord of Light worshipped in the Free Cities. It's really the only religion the modders can work with since it's the most non-Westrosi religion known. Yeah, sure they can add more Essosi religion, but with the lack of information we know of them, they'll just be the most generic religions possible. At least R'hollor has known tennets the modders can use.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

As per vanilla CK2, if you drop a Catholic in the middle of India, diplomacy is likely going to be frosty. R'hillor is noted to be alien to most Westrosi in the books themselves; I doubt a regular follower of the Faith of the Seven could stomach having a neighbor who worships the Black Goat.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I just wanted there to be reduced penalties among Essosi characters. If I don't want to follow R'hllor or the local religion, I usually go Valyrian or Starry Night, because both of those have been confirmed as present in at least some of the Free Cities, and none of them are distinctive local cults. But, both of these are wrong religion group, so -20 penalty to opinion, and no marriages.

I want to play as a patrician who doesn't care about religion - it seems to me that most of those portrayed in the books and show are like this. They don't seem like the types to turn down a marriage with the richest and most powerful man in the city because you both pay lip service to different religions that neither of you really believe in.

R'hillor is likely the most followed religion on Essos, if only because it's presence is noted in nearly every one of the Free Cities. Given the behavior of the Red Priests, it's rather unlikely that they tolerate the presence of other established faiths. In Westeros, for example, there's far more gods mentioned then just the Faith of the Seven; the Merling King, the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skys, and the Moon-Pale Maiden are all noted to be worshiped, likely in port cities but in decent numbers regardless. Still, that doesn't mean that Lannisport worships the Church of Starry Wisdom, even if a temple to it is present there.

As for other Essosi religions, the followers of the Black Goat are considered to be demon worshipers by the followers of the lord of light, Norvos is a theocracy that considers itself surrounded by infidels, the Bravossi are just sort of there, the priesthood of Trios occasionally demands human sacrifice, the Lorathi gods also occasionally get peopled sacrificed to them, and the Valyrian worshipers marry their cousins. Really, the worship of the Lord of Light is the only rational choice for the average Essosi. Burn them all.

I don't have a problem with those cities said to have an official religion (Norvos and Qohor, at the very least), but IIRC the entire coast from Braavos to Volantis knows no official faith, and what info we have seems to indicate that you rarely if ever have large areas that overwhelmingly follow the same faith. There should be mechanics to represent dominant local faiths, but it's weird to see Myr and Lys treated as fanatically united in favor of the Lord of Light in the same way that Westeros follows the Seven.[/QUOTE]

While I would like to see more than just the Lord of Light worshipped in the Free Cities. It's really the only religion the modders can work with since it's the most non-Westrosi religion known. Yeah, sure they can add more Essosi religion, but with the lack of information we know of them, they'll just be the most generic religions possible. At least R'hollor has known tennets the modders can use.

I don't think we need more religions, except for a generic one representing lack of a dominant/official religion. You could still let them use the features of other faiths - just change the decisions that check for religion=rhllor or somesuch to also be allowed if you are Essosi religion and fit a parameter or two. You could even have modifiers like the Hindu patron deity from RoI, representing each local religion. If you have "Favoring R'hllor" you can get R'hllor decisions and events. You would have all the flavor of whatever local religion you prefer, but mechanics wise, religion wouldn't be as divisive an issue unless you take out all the stops and formally convert to a certain religion.

 

[Arcvalons]

Essos just follows an Antiquity model of religion which CK2 is ill prepared to handle.

 

[Pokonic]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I just wanted there to be reduced penalties among Essosi characters. If I don't want to follow R'hllor or the local religion, I usually go Valyrian or Starry Night, because both of those have been confirmed as present in at least some of the Free Cities, and none of them are distinctive local cults. But, both of these are wrong religion group, so -20 penalty to opinion, and no marriages.

I would say that at least two Essosi religions (Bravossi Moonsingers and Valyrian) could use a liege opinion modifier similar to that of vanilla Jainist opinion bonus, but that's just mechanics. As for other Essosi religions, both Qohor and Norvos were founded as religious colonies by faiths even less tolerant then that of R'hllor's faith, and Trios is at least vaguely militaristic and probably is the state religion of the city of Trios. Any evidence that Essos is somehow more tolerant of other faiths is likely restricted to Bravos in general and in the cities proper, due to trade, much like it is in Westeros, with many port cities having temples to various sailor deities. As a whole, most of the major cults in Essos are rather nasty.

I want to play as a patrician who doesn't care about religion - it seems to me that most of those portrayed in the books and show are like this. They don't seem like the types to turn down a marriage with the richest and most powerful man in the city because you both pay lip service to different religions that neither of you really believe in.

Most Westerosi rulers are portrayed as not particularly caring about religion; that said, the Queen's Men in Stannis's army are still considered odd by others. It's as much a cultural thing as a actual religious thing; one could count the amount of intermarriage between followers of the Drowned God and those of the Faith on one hand, for one thing. It's already a stretch that Westrosi houses occasionally marry into poor Andals living in one of the most dilapidated regions of Essos.

I don't have a problem with those cities said to have an official religion (Norvos and Qohor, at the very least), but IIRC the entire coast from Braavos to Volantis knows no official faith, and what info we have seems to indicate that you rarely if ever have large areas that overwhelmingly follow the same faith. There should be mechanics to represent dominant local faiths, but it's weird to see Myr and Lys treated as fanatically united in favor of the Lord of Light in the same way that Westeros follows the Seven.

It's weird that you're seeing Myr and Lys as a united front. The four cities that worship R'hllor are all merchant republics that are clustered near one another, and merchant republics tend to fight one another quite near constantly. Really, the main aggressors in Essos, war-wise, tends to be Bravos when it gets into anti-slavery shenanigans.

I don't think we need more religions, except for a generic one representing lack of a dominant/official religion.

There's some serious signs that the smallfolk of Westeros often worship divergent aspects of the Seven and more likely then not have traditions that relate more to the Old Gods then anything going on in a Sept. That doesn't really mean that large swaths of the Seven Kingdoms should be dominated by a heresy of the Faith of the Seven to represent smallfolk irreligiosity or zealousness.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I would say that at least two Essosi religions (Bravossi Moonsingers and Valyrian) could use a liege opinion modifier similar to that of vanilla Jainist opinion bonus, but that's just mechanics. As for other Essosi religions, both Qohor and Norvos were founded as religious colonies by faiths even less tolerant then that of R'hllor's faith, and Trios is at least vaguely militaristic and probably is the state religion of the city of Trios. Any evidence that Essos is somehow more tolerant of other faiths is likely restricted to Bravos in general and in the cities proper, due to trade, much like it is in Westeros, with many port cities having temples to various sailor deities. As a whole, most of the major cults in Essos are rather nasty.

OK, I'll clarify my ideal system here:

Every Free City without a confirmed official religion gets the new Essosi religion, or special tolerance mechanics. This excludes Qohor and Norvos, possibly Lorath, and probably includes Tyrosh (IIRC Trios is just a favored cult, it isn't actually the official state religion to the exclusion of all other faiths).

As far as I can tell, Braavos, Pentos, Myr, Lys, Volantis, and probably Tyrosh are all relatively tolerant, at least as far as the state/nobility are concerned. I'm sure there are some powerful families that are zealous R'hllorites, but for the most part I gather that powerful families don't care for religion much, even if they have a shrine to a particular deity in their manse.

Most Westerosi rulers are portrayed as not particularly caring about religion; that said, the Queen's Men in Stannis's army are still considered odd by others. It's as much a cultural thing as a actual religious thing; one could count the amount of intermarriage between followers of the Drowned God and those of the Faith on one hand, for one thing. It's already a stretch that Westrosi houses occasionally marry into poor Andals living in one of the most dilapidated regions of Essos.

Well, seems to me that the Drowned God should possibly be moved to the Westerosi Group (the Lady of the Waves too, if it isn't already).

It's weird that you're seeing Myr and Lys as a united front. The four cities that worship R'hllor are all merchant republics that are clustered near one another, and merchant republics tend to fight one another quite near constantly. Really, the main aggressors in Essos, war-wise, tends to be Bravos when it gets into anti-slavery shenanigans.

I didn't mean the two cities together, I meant the populations of each individual city. In-game, Myr, Lys, Pentos, and Volantis (when not ruled by Valyrian families, who tend to get replaced by R'hllorites in my experience) act the same as if the entire population were devout followers of R'hllor, including the aristocracy. They feel like they are 100% R'hllor. Which doesn't feel right - R'hllor is more worshipped than any other deity, but I've never gathered that the religion has anywhere near the dominance that we see in game.

There's some serious signs that the smallfolk of Westeros often worship divergent aspects of the Seven and more likely then not have traditions that relate more to the Old Gods then anything going on in a Sept. That doesn't really mean that large swaths of the Seven Kingdoms should be dominated by a heresy of the Faith of the Seven to represent smallfolk irreligiosity or zealousness.

There's a difference between divergence within one religious tradition, and the massive proliferation of many different, highly distinct cults, none of which occupy official status as the state religion.

 

[GrandTimeRuler]

I would agree that certain religions should be occasionally added (particularly the Weeping Lady), but I also think that Braavos itself, which is heavily noted for its religious diversity and tolerancem, should have more religions than just the Moonsingers; there should probably be, at the very least, some Braavosi provinces that worship the Many-Faced God and R'hllor (both are noted to be worshipped by quite a bit of the Braavosi population). I do, however, think it's probably a good idea that some sort of "Essosi" or "Sailor" religion is added, but probably only to represent various groups such as the Father of Waters, the Church of Starry Wisdom, the Merling King, the Silent God, Aquan the Red Bull, etc. I still think that groups such as the Moonsingers, the Many-Faced God, R'hllor, the Trios, etc., are widespread and unique enough to be granted their own religion.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I would agree that certain religions should be occasionally added (particularly the Weeping Lady), but I also think that Braavos itself, which is heavily noted for its religious diversity and tolerancem, should have more religions than just the Moonsingers; there should probably be, at the very least, some Braavosi provinces that worship the Many-Faced God and R'hllor (both are noted to be worshipped by quite a bit of the Braavosi population). I do, however, think it's probably a good idea that some sort of "Essosi" or "Sailor" religion is added, but probably only to represent various groups such as the Father of Waters, the Church of Starry Wisdom, the Merling King, the Silent God, Aquan the Red Bull, etc. I still think that groups such as the Moonsingers, the Many-Faced God, R'hllor, the Trios, etc., are widespread and unique enough to be granted their own religion.

If there are so many religions, wouldn't it make more sense to create a catch-all to represent regions with no plurality, and individuals/families with no strong individual attachments? There could be events for every remotely major cult throughout the Free Cities, and the ability to favor one in particular. It would be a nice way to include the Church of Starry Wisdom and other barely-mentioned cults in-game, without including them as flavorless religions that prevent a player from using mechanics tied to other religions.

I think the situation seems kind of like Roman religion - a bunch of cults existing side by side, and individuals may be devotees of one, many, or none. And I don't think people would like a Roman-period historical mod where each province is randomly assigned a different cult to show the religious diversity of the Empire.

 

[GrandTimeRuler]

If there are so many religions, wouldn't it make more sense to create a catch-all to represent regions with no plurality, and individuals/families with no strong individual attachments? There could be events for every remotely major cult throughout the Free Cities, and the ability to favor one in particular. It would be a nice way to include the Church of Starry Wisdom and other barely-mentioned cults in-game, without including them as flavorless religions that prevent a player from using mechanics tied to other religions.

I think the situation seems kind of like Roman religion - a bunch of cults existing side by side, and individuals may be devotees of one, many, or none. And I don't think people would like a Roman-period historical mod where each province is randomly assigned a different cult to show the religious diversity of the Empire.

I do think that a catch-all religion is a good idea with religious "sects" to represent various minor cults (Church of Starry Wisdom, Aquan the Red Bull, etc.), but I think that less tolerant religions such as the Black Goat, R'hllor (kinda important in the ACOK/AFFC bookmarks for Westeros too), the Bearded Priests' religion, the Gods of Lorath, etc., should still be considered separate religions. I'd imagine R'hllor and the new "catch-all" religion would be roughly evenly spread in Myr, Lys, and pentos, whilst R'hllor would be the majority in Volantis and the minority in Tyrosh and Braavos. It might be a good idea to have different catch-all religions however, because I think it'd make sense for the various Braavosi religions to be opposed to slavery and the southern religions to be neutral if not in favor of it; it might also make sense for their to thus be enmity between the two due to slavery. There should definitely be different factors in choosing potential "sects", however; for example, I think the Tyroshi and Lysene would be much more likely to believe in the Trios or the Weeping Woman respectively.

However, I also think it's a good idea for the Many-Faced God to be its own separate religions, because it'd likely already have flavor; potential human sacrifices or even a suicide decision, a clear religious head, and being able to choose which "face" to primarily venerate (a i.e., something similar to the Hindu patron deity decision). The Many-Faced God is a fairly large religion in Braavos, so I think it would make sense for a few to have the majority follow the Many-Faced God, another few follow R'hllor, and then several, including Braavos proper, follow a catch-all "Braavosi" religion (mainly Moonsingers but also various other religions, because Braavos is probably the most religiously diverse city/country in Planetos).

Also, there could be a potential "Sailor" religion, representing the disparate religions worshipped by sailors in Westeros and Planetos that characters in the courts of Mayors of coastal cities/towns (Lannisport, Oldtown, KL, Gulltown, White Harbor, the Free Cities that aren't Norvos or Qohor, even places like Duskendale or Driftmark) could, on rare occasions, follow. This definitely doesn't have to exist however, it's just a thought.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I do think that a catch-all religion is a good idea with religious "sects" to represent various minor cults (Church of Starry Wisdom, Aquan the Red Bull, etc.), but I think that less tolerant religions such as the Black Goat, R'hllor (kinda important in the ACOK/AFFC bookmarks for Westeros too), the Bearded Priests' religion, the Gods of Lorath, etc., should still be considered separate religions. I'd imagine R'hllor and the new "catch-all" religion would be roughly evenly spread in Myr, Lys, and pentos, whilst R'hllor would be the majority in Volantis and the minority in Tyrosh and Braavos. It might be a good idea to have different catch-all religions however, because I think it'd make sense for the various Braavosi religions to be opposed to slavery and the southern religions to be neutral if not in favor of it; it might also make sense for their to thus be enmity between the two due to slavery. There should definitely be different factors in choosing potential "sects", however; for example, I think the Tyroshi and Lysene would be much more likely to believe in the Trios or the Weeping Woman respectively.

However, I also think it's a good idea for the Many-Faced God to be its own separate religions, because it'd likely already have flavor; potential human sacrifices or even a suicide decision, a clear religious head, and being able to choose which "face" to primarily venerate (a i.e., something similar to the Hindu patron deity decision). The Many-Faced God is a fairly large religion in Braavos, so I think it would make sense for a few to have the majority follow the Many-Faced God, another few follow R'hllor, and then several, including Braavos proper, follow a catch-all "Braavosi" religion (mainly Moonsingers but also various other religions, because Braavos is probably the most religiously diverse city/country in Planetos).

Also, there could be a potential "Sailor" religion, representing the disparate religions worshipped by sailors in Westeros and Planetos that characters in the courts of Mayors of coastal cities/towns (Lannisport, Oldtown, KL, Gulltown, White Harbor, the Free Cities that aren't Norvos or Qohor, even places like Duskendale or Driftmark) could, on rare occasions, follow. This definitely doesn't have to exist however, it's just a thought.

I'm not saying all religions should vanish - Qohor and Norvos (and Lorath maybe?) should all keep their state religions. And areas where overwhelming majority worship of R'hllor is confirmed should be R'hllor. But the rest of the Free Cities should be relatively religiously neutral.

 

[GrandTimeRuler]

I'm not saying all religions should vanish - Qohor and Norvos (and Lorath maybe?) should all keep their state religions. And areas where overwhelming majority worship of R'hllor is confirmed should be R'hllor. But the rest of the Free Cities should be relatively religiously neutral.

The problem with making the rest of the Free Cities only one religion with various "sects" is that it eliminates the possibility of adding in unique religions such as the Many-Faced God (and I highly doubt your average citizen of the Free Cities, with the possible exception of the Braavosi, is going to be tolerant of worshippers of the god of death, so grouping it under the umbrella Free Cities religion completely negates this intolerance) with their own unique sacrifices, patron "faces"/deities, and religious head. Also, R'hllor is largely intolerant of other religions, so making R'hllor a the majority-proivince religion (because many smallfolk of the Free Cities are likely devout followers of R'hllor) in numerous provinces throughout Lys, Myr and Pentos (and being the majority-province religion of almost all of Volantis), whilst at the same time having the elites of the Free Cities be more tolerant of tother religions; for example, adding a "tolerance of other religions" trait that removes the "religious differences" for elite (i.e., non-theocratic government characters in the Free Cities outside of Volantis that worship R'hllor and don't have the Zealous trait) followers of R'hllor; Illyrio Mopatis being a good example of one of these characters.

 

[mrstevehazzard]

I think the Free Cities are a problem just because of the CKII engine...you can't really have a city-state with multiple religions, and the engine doesn't differentiate between the religion of the aristocracy and and smallfolk.

I think all of the religions should be kept in the game, but I think there should be a concerted effort between the modders and the fans of the mod to flesh the Essosi religions out. Even if we don't know much about the religions from the lore, we should come up with at least hypotheses just to give the religions some flavor until such a time when GRRM gives us more to go off of. That was my impetus for suggesting the Autocephalus mechanic for The Harpy; the religions that are fully fleshed out in the mod are clever and fantastic, but there's lot that just doesn't have anything going for it.

As for Braavos, my idea to add a little flavor to the city-state is to make each of the patricians a different religion: this would make the city feel more cosmopolitan and varied, and if perhaps new CBs might be offered for varying Essosi religions, it could make a Braavos playthrough really dynamic.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I think the mod should make a clear distinction between material that we have reasonable canonical basis for, and totally new stuff that fans make up to flesh out the world. The latter should be reserved for mini-mods.

I think we could deal with a lot of the problem of lack of flavor for religion in western Essos by effectively merging all of the minor cults and half-hearted R'hllor worshippers together. Stuff like Starry Wisdom could still be an independent faith, but only for people who don't mind playing flavorless religions.

What I'm picturing is something like this - as a character with the generic Free Cities religion, you get events and decisions related to every religion that can be found in your area, with special focuses in certain cities. With so many cults, all you really need is one or two events per cult, and it will feel like a lot of flavor. For example, a "donate to a local temple" decision, with a choice between every local religion, flavor text for visiting the local temple and interacting with the priests and worshippers, possible gameplay effects (such as temporary minor stat bonuses for each faith you donate to), and possibility of becoming a more serious patron/follower of that religion (gain a trait like Hindu patron deity, and get the ability to convert fully to that religion, representing a permanent shift for you and your family).

And to make it so that we don't all end up converting to R'hllor once we're tired of the rest of what will still be a less flavorful religious experience, we should have full access to most R'hllor mechanics as long as we have the "patronizing R'hllor" trait. Possibly with an extra event or two representing tensions arising from not completely committing ourselves and our dynasty to the faith.