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French minor nations for IGC

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Has anyone brought to attention that France should contain several semi-independent countries that at the beginning of the GC should be separate political entities? These states include: Avignon (owned by the Papal States until the French Revolution); The lands of the Duke of Bourbon(annexed in 1527, should be a vassal at the least in 1492; and the Lands of Orleanais and Blois (acquired by Louis XII in 1498, in 1492, probably as a vassal state.) This would also improve playability by helping to delay the French powerhouse initially by simulating the disunity that began in France with the Bourbon intrigues with which Francis I had to contend. Keep up the good work..
 
That's a very good suggestion.

Also, I would increase the revolt factors in broad regions that make todays Bretagne and French Basque.
 
The same can be said about a lot of countries though. Spain wasn't a real unit either in 1492 for example. And there are plenty more examples. The time is a late phase from getting from a feodal system to one with unified states. IMO they should stay unified as those unfied states were the real players in the period that spans the game.
 
Another support for French minor nations is that the King of France suppressed a reovlt of the Dukes of Orleans and Brittany from 1481-1491, thereby showing that semi-independent powers in France were still stirring up trouble that had to be dealt with and that it could interfere with their politics and military ambitions. (Reference to Bourbon lands in eastern France above). Keep up the good works.
 
This was discussed extensively in last year. The conclusion(IIRC) being something like France was by that time ruled by a one ruler dispate being collection of minors. They were more than vassals for France because they were directly ruled by it. And throuh the years the kings control for these various minors was solified and local rule abolished. Thus it only clarifies the situation to treat it as a 1 country.

The same thing was discussed about Spain but I can't remember exactly what was the out come.

Ask Greven. He know everything ;)
 
I understand that Brittany should not be independent at all seeing as they were annexed in 1491. I just used Brittany as a well known example. My reference mostly points to the Bourbon lands in eastern France, these lands were not annexed until 1527. The Bourbon lands are quite substantial (would compose 2-3 provinces), and were important enough for the Bourbon heir to appeal to the Emperor for support, eventually leading to the showdown at Pavia in 1525 (the end of the Valois-Hapsburg struggle for Northern Italy). Also the Papal States held on to Avignon until 1792, could be a good way to drive a wedge between the Papacy and France. Excellent work on the IGC. Excellent research being done as well. My thanks to all those involved...
 
Brittany was annexed in 1514. Since 1491 there were intermarriages constituting some sort of dynastic union with Brittany still officially considered equal and independent. All maps around that time show this. If Brittany should be in the game at all, then at the start (and not as a revolter).
In the IGC they start out as a vassal with military alliance to France and are mostly annexed in 1502, which is even before the historical date.
And btw.: whereas I hold Greven´s opinion in very high esteem, I can´t agree that he knows everything. Noone of us does. :)

Hartmann
 
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I had read that Brittany was annexed just after what was called the 'Mad War' in 1491. The 'Mad War' being the revolt of the Dukes of Brittany and Orleans. My information comes from 2 books, -Harper's Encyclopedia of Military History-, and an atlas of military history. Both have been very useful and accurate so far. The provinces of the Bourbon would encompass Lyonnais and Bourgogne. Once again, excellent work on your project...
 
Further points to be made in favor of French 'disunity' are that, French noble rights were more strongly held by the nobility and the economic factors were more in their favor for defending these rights (such as favorable economic conditions as well as population base). Another point that showed that nobility rights and possessions were a danger to the central authority of the crown was that Louis XIV built Versailles in the late 1600's to help house and thereby keep scrutiny on these unruly dukes and princes. This clearly showed that the major magnates of France were still capable of challenging the crown even as late as the 1600's. (NOTE- That the Bourbon lands also included the province of Auverge. These lands, in the early 1500's, belonged to Charles of Bourbon.) BiB has made points that conclude that the conditions in Spain were much the same as that of France, and therefore, the game should remain the same. The difference is that Spain did not suffer the same disunity in the same period. Granted, the Iberian peninsula was in disunity in earlier centuries, but the union of Castile and Aragon seems to have taken hold much more strongly than in France and therefore did not suffer the same civil disturbances (revolts) that the French suffered (most French revolts concentrated in the 1500's mostly). Thank you for your time and efforts..
 
To Hartmann

I don't really think Greven knows everything. You did know that? Didn't you? :) If I would I'd plead him to teach me the way of the Jedi! ;) What I meant I'm pretty sure who was around when this matter was discussed last time.
 
In Spain, Castille and Aragon were seperate kingdoms, with Castille under Isabella and Aragon under Ferdinand. But they had a stronger union than France did at the time, mainly due to the Inquisition. Nice to know it was good for something, eh? :)

BTW, before the marriage of these two, Portugal also attempted to unite Portugal and Castille. Perhaps this could be another Alternate History GC, rAziZ?

As for France, I think Hartmanns new IGC is a definite improvement in terms of how the situation was in 1492. France had long had a feudal arrangement of lords at least nominally under the French King, and with the struggle of the 100 years war finally over, French Kings had only begun to centralize the govt at this time. It is too bad there isn't TAGs for a duchy of bourbon, or a duchy of Flanders. If an EU2 ever is made, it would be nice to be able to make your own TAGs, so you can always make your own countries. A scenario editor would also be a bonus for those less technical minded as well ;)
 
I'm currently playing a scenario with Flanders ;) I used the Saxony shield as it looks very alike.

Actually a united Portugal and Castille-Aragon was a lot more likely in 1492 than a Habsburg Spain. Funny how things go.
 
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