Game about ancient China

[Morricane]

Yes it's a massive improvement but it's still moronic. The chinese factions still don't make sense (temple faction what ?) and the shogun still become somehow the emperor of japan

Emperor of Japan?
Well, you know...in theory that even could have happened (it just did not). For example, there's speculation that Ashikaga no Yoshimitsu planned to usurp imperial authority back at the end of the 14th century...and that is death was not a natural one (because of this ambition of his). Seeing it from the political framework, it never was a political impossibility. In theory, the head of any of the three bakufu during history *had* to be of Minamoto-lineage too, but in practice, that wasn't always the case either...


...
That being said...just how scarce is the situation on sources for premodern China in western European languages anyway?
If the Japanese situation is any measure, it should be...very scarce.

 

[diegosimeone]

This would actually be very interesting. I'd like to know what the Chinese members (and not only) think of the map of this potential game. Modern day China and what else should be included?

 

[ahhheygao]

1) The Chinese government hasn't been too friendly to Paradox, even if Paradox have plenty of fans there.

But why should they be, when PDS has yet to depict China in positive light? The ridiculous depiction of China in EU3 DW and EU4 are close to mockery, and there are the typical homer fanatics who get butthurt about the weak depiction of Communist China in HoI3. You should also be aware that for the Chinese, any time the West glorifies historical Japan without presentation of historical China will rile feathers; in that regard, PDS is no different from Creative Assembly or any other typical Japan-loving Westerners.

A historically accurate game about China may well raise hackles (e.g., does it show Tibet/Xinjiang/Taiwan/Inner Mongolia/Manchuria as being part of China at that time? Vietnam?).

It's confounding that someone who should supposedly be knowledgeable about China would say this. If PDS represents modern-day China without including Tibet and Taiwan or any other disputed territories, yes, they will piss people off. But any educated, non-delusional Chinese who knows the slightest bit of history is well aware that many those regions were historically not ruled by the reigning Han dynasty and not part of the Middle Kingdom, and it goes without saythe early eras like the Three Kingdom or Warring States/Spring and Autumn periods were largely confined to the Central Plains and surrounding areas. Taiwan wasn't even colonized back until the EU4 timeline. Tibet was a major foreign power that competed against the Tang and wasn't even "incorporated" until the Qing Dynasty. Xinjiang and Northern Vietnam were only controlled during certain apex periods. Everyone knows that the Great Wall of China was to block out hostile northern steppe tribes like Xiongnu, Mongols, Jurchens, Manchus, etc. who have often been major enemies to the ethnic Han Middle Kingdom.

Paradox would hope for sales there, but it may not be possible (does Steam sell into China?).

Yes, Steam sells to China, but stronger countermeasures against piracy is recommended.

 

[Darkath]

But why should they be, when PDS has yet to depict China in positive light? The ridiculous depiction of China in EU3 DW and EU4 are close to mockery, and there are the typical homer fanatics who get butthurt about the weak depiction of Communist China in HoI3. You should also be aware that for the Chinese, any time the West glorifies historical Japan without presentation of historical China will rile feathers; in that regard, PDS is no different from Creative Assembly or any other typical Japan-loving Westerners.

Just to clarify. The Chinese government doesn't care much about how imperial china is depicted. Their only concern is how Communist China, Nationalist China or Current/future China are depicted. Basically they're just concerned about recent history.
Also they have to be aware that such a game exist and the bureau that handle this can't screen every game.

They also don't want games that encourage superstitions and they especially don't like aliens and undeads (for whatever reasons)

To my knowledge (when i was in china) only Hearts of Iron I was banned from steam (the reason was : for "distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity")

The PC game, "Hearts of Iron", was accused of distorting historical facts in describing the Fascist regimes of Japan, Germany and Italy during World War II.

Moreover, "Manchuria", "West Xinjiang", and "Tibet" appeared as independent sovereign countries in the maps of the game. In addition, it even included China's Taiwan province as the territory of Japan at the beginning of the game.

"All these severely distort historical facts and violate China's gaming and Internet service regulations," the MOC said. "The game should be immediately prohibited."

Hearts of Iron II and III were available, but for example X-COM : Enemy Unknown was banned (aliens invading china, that's asking for trouble )

Note that the reason HoI I was banned still applies for II and III but the fact they were available only in digital form must have helped them go un noticed by the ministry of culture.

 

[Limith]

Just to clarify. The Chinese government doesn't care much about how imperial china is depicted. Their only concern is how Communist China, Nationalist China or Current/future China are depicted. Basically they're just concerned about recent history.
Also they have to be aware that such a game exist and the bureau that handle this can't screen every game.

They also don't want games that encourage superstitions and they especially don't like aliens and undeads (for whatever reasons)

To my knowledge (when i was in china) only Hearts of Iron I was banned from steam (the reason was : for "distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity")



Hearts of Iron II and III were available, but for example X-COM : Enemy Unknown was banned (aliens invading china, that's asking for trouble )

Note that the reason HoI I was banned still applies for II and III but the fact they were available only in digital form must have helped them go un noticed by the ministry of culture.

It's mostly banned now due to inaccuracies in depicting China, yes. But people still play it, as do Communist Party members (there were some posts from people in the CPC talking about who X minister was when translated from English to Chinese). Also, those countries were de facto independent, I don't think whoever screened the game understood the difference between controlled territory and core territory. Click on core territory map mode in DH, then click on China, and it's all correct. I think the main reason it was banned is due to the fact that the contributions of Communist China is barely modeled in game. It's near impossible in HoI2 without mods to achieve what historically occurred.

Incidentally, I've been working hard at improving the representation of China in DH. Base game Paradox are always horrible with regards to China. Vicky 2 reprensentation is terrible. Even MEIOU has terrible representation of the three factions (I personally modded these myself to fit what they would actually be, you should be able to go to war with any faction, the emperor's rule was the law, ridiculous that you can't arbitrarily). That they made Confucianism (a PHILOSOPHY) a religion, and not Shenism (the ACTUAL Chinese folk religion), speaks the loudest imo (and the effects for Conficianism are all wrong). And yes, Shenism is on the internet in English, so there's no excuse for it besides showing Paradox didn't bother researching at all. Historical China is also on the internet. Rise of the Three Kingdoms mod for Kingdoms:Total War is made by people outside of China. There's tons of English material available.

 

[Darkath]

Yep.

Although i kinda disagree with the religion bit. While it's true that Shenism was, stricto-sensu, the proper religion of most chinese in ancient times, conflicting beliefs and practices mostly happened between Confucianists, Buddhists, and Mohists/Taoists cults, which all give different frameworks of moral and worship, although they all are connected to same god (Shangdi / Tian / Heaven) and ancestral worship.

So for me Shenism would be the overarching "religious group" while Confucianism and Taoism being different "religions" within that group. But yeah it's kinda hard to represent with current mechanics of EU/CK.
Buddhism is even harder to represent in game because it has a tendancy of merging with the local folk religion ... Chinese buddhists would probably still worship heaven and ancestors but in a different way than confucians .. but would need to be in a different "buddhism" religious group ... that's difficult

 

[Limith]

Yep.

Although i kinda disagree with the religion bit. While it's true that Shenism was, stricto-sensu, the proper religion of most chinese in ancient times, conflicting beliefs and practices mostly happened between Confucianists, Buddhists, and Mohists/Taoists cults, which all give different frameworks of moral and worship, although they all are connected to same god (Shangdi / Tian / Heaven) and ancestral worship.

So for me Shenism would be the overarching "religious group" while Confucianism and Taoism being different "religions" within that group. But yeah it's kinda hard to represent with current mechanics of EU/CK.
Buddhism is even harder to represent in game because it has a tendancy of merging with the local folk religion ... Chinese buddhists would probably still worship heaven and ancestors but in a different way than confucians .. but would need to be in a different "buddhism" religious group ... that's difficult

Except that there is nothing religious about Confucianism. It is a philosophy and ideology. That Confucianism is a religion is a misconception perpetuated by westeners and Paradox Interactive. Confucianists who do ancestor worship don't due it because of Confucianism, but because of shenism. In other words, they are religiously shenists, while philosophically confucianists. Properties that are part of Shenism (such as ancestor worship) has been mis-identified with Confucianism. Confucianism should be a country effect/bonus/malus, while Buddhism and Shenism should be the two religions. Daoism should be considered a subset of Shenism, so the "Promote/Denounce Neo-Confucianism" decision in EU3 should be renamed "Promote/Denounce Daoism"

The core of Confucianism is humanism, or what the philosopher Herbert Fingarette calls "the secular as sacred". Confucianism focuses on the practical, especially the importance of the family, and not a belief in gods or the afterlife

Confucianism is definitively non-theistic. Confucianism is humanistic, and does not involve a belief in the supernatural or in a personal god. On spirituality, Confucius said to Chi Lu, one of his students, that "You are not yet able to serve men, how can you serve spirits?"

Read up on Confucianism on Wikipedia and tell me what is religious about it. Xiao (Falial Piety) as said by Confucius refers to respect to one's parents and ancestors, NOT ancestor worship, which is an artifact of Shenism. In fact, the section on if it is a religion says it is a religion only when using criteria that makes Communism a religion, which is ridiculous.

 

[Darkath]

I know that confucianism is not a religion by itself, but it's strongly associated with shenism.

Because Confucius himself worshiped Heaven, followers of Confucius were encouraged to do the same. As i said even if Taoism and Confucianism are not religions by themselves, they still provide a framework of morals and quasi-religious practices that ties strongly with Shenism. The concept of Heaven while similar, can differ in the different philosophies.

The article about Heaven (Tian) outline several aspects that ties Confucius teaching with the concept of a godly Heaven.

Even so that's not even my point, i'm not trying to argue that confucianism and taoism are religion (because i agree they are not, stricto-sensu). I'm trying to say it is acceptable that they are represented as such in paradox games because those "philosophies" and the influence struggle between them, mattered as much as religions mattered in Europe. When a Taoist emperor was succeeded by a more Confucianist emperor, that was a big deal. But this nuance would disappear if we considered both of them as simply being Shenists.

 

[Limith]

I know that confucianism is not a religion by itself, but it's strongly associated with shenism.

Because Confucius himself worshiped Heaven, followers of Confucius were encouraged to do the same. As i said even if Taoism and Confucianism are not religions by themselves, they still provide a framework of morals and quasi-religious practices that ties strongly with Shenism. The concept of Heaven while similar, can differ in the different philosophies.

The article about Heaven (Tian) outline several aspects that ties Confucius teaching with the concept of a godly Heaven.

Not really, a lot of the quotes in the Tian article with Confucius is misinterpretation of the actual Chinese version that adds incorrect religious connotations to those quotes. They can also be considered an alternative reading of the quotes. I know cause I read the actual Chinese version and I asked my grandparents to explain what they mean (since historical Chinese is hard to understand, sort've like Elizabethan English to modern English). Not saying that Confucius wasn't a Shenist himself, but that Confucianism, the theory of thought advocated by Confucianism, is not the same as his Shenist statements. Daoism was nominated as a state religion. Confucianism never was. Cofucianism is a way of thought, and it competed with Legalism, another way of thought. It is not, and NEVER has been a religion, which is something westerns seem to consistently misunderstand.
5+4 Principles/Core of Confucianism:

    Rén (仁, Humaneness)
    Yì (義, Righteousness or Justice)
    Lǐ (禮, Propriety or Etiquette)
    Zhì (智, Knowledge)
    Xìn (信, Integrity).

    Zhōng (忠, Loyalty)
    Xiào (孝, Respect for Elders/Parents)
    Jié (節, Continency)
    Yì (義, Righteousness).

Even so that's not even my point, i'm not trying to argue that confucianism and taoism are religion (because i agree they are not, stricto-sensu). I'm trying to say it is acceptable that they are represented as such in paradox games because those "philosophies" and the influence struggle between them, mattered as much as religions mattered in Europe. When a Taoist emperor was succeeded by a more Confucianist emperor, that was a big deal. But this nuance would disappear if we considered both of them as simply being Shenists.

Except people didn't revolt because the Taoist emperor was succeeded by a Non-Taoist. People wouldn't have the huge dissent effects that a different religion ruler does in EU3 in provinces. Paradox is over-exaggerating the "nuance" when it isn't there. It is like saying: Newton's First Law was advocated by a Christian, so it is a part of Christianity. Or Existentialism was advocated by Christians, so it is a part of Christianity. Again, Daoism should be represented as a subset of Shenism, and the religious decision should be renamed "Promote Doaism" and "Denounce Daosim" (in fact the coding itself actually refers to Daoism iirc). Confucianism should be a country effect that can be replaced with Legalism if a country prefers it. The religion should be Shenism or Buddhism. Paradox insists on using Confucianism because either a)Lazy and didn't do real research or b)Thinks more people would understand the incorrect name because it's so widely misused/misunderstood in the west.

 

[Jolt]

There was a mod that was being designed for CKII, but it apparently died off.

The main idea was the Three Kingdoms, but afterwards it was going to branch forward into the age of fragmentation and backward to the Warring States.

Yeap, it's dead. It never even got off the map making stage. I was helping out the person involved with the map, but he went silent, and I PM'd him, got no response even though he still comes to these forums.

The point was to fully flesh out the Three Kingdoms in 2-3 scenarios, and if everything looked good, we'd start looking at doing a Warring States scenario.

 

[Limith]

Rise of the Three Kingdoms. Kingdoms:Total War mod.

Other than that, Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Japanese game devs are the only major options.

 

[Darkath]

And legally, on PC, in English, Romance of the Three Kingdom 11 is the only option (available on gamersgate). And is not historical but based on a novel that heavily romance historical events (either way it doesn't matter much as the game is a sandbox)

 

[Limith]

And legally, on PC, in English, Romance of the Three Kingdom 11 is the only option (available on gamersgate). And is not historical but based on a novel that heavily romance historical events (either way it doesn't matter much as the game is a sandbox)

Rise of the Three Kingdoms. Kingdoms:Total War mod is based on history, not the novel. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?1904-Rise-of-Three-Kingdoms-(RotK)

Incidentally, I also modded a little (just some balancing) of that mod (yes, a mod of a mod).

 

[chatnoir17]

There is no English board games about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, right? As for the Japanse Sengoku Jidai set up, I have found Ikusa and Shogun (the historical accuracy of these games are terrible btw.), but had no success about the Chinese history.

 

[Patricky]

A whole new game no, but an expansion for ck2 yes.

LOL

PI announces new expansion for India, people on the forums freak out.

I can't wait to see everybody's reactions when they eventually decide to include China from Tang to Ming Dynasty.

 

[Morricane]

LOL

PI announces new expansion for India, people on the forums freak out.

I can't wait to see everybody's reactions when they eventually decide to include China from Tang to Ming Dynasty.

I already know how that reaction will look like...

 

[unmerged(617637)]

Crusader Kings 2: the Dragon and the Monk - newest DLC to acclaimed grand strategy game Crusader Kings 2 expanding on Tibet and China. Map size increases by 50%. Coming 2015.

 

[Punderland]

So after one year......will this happen....plz?

 

[Will Steel]

So, if the commies ruling present day China aren't concerned about how Imperial China (AKA the REAL and glorious China) looked like, I suppose any game that depicts Tang dynasty in a realistic way and not showing it as owning all of the earth, would sell there. Paradox could one day make a game about Three Kingdoms or perhaps the Warring States, that would certainly make them some good earnings if they do it right.

By the way, how many people in China actually play Paradox games, if you don't count HoI series? The commies must've brainwashed them into believing that Tibet was always owned by China, instead of the reality where it was actually a fully independent nation, conquered only by the Yuan for a short time and reduced to near-annexation by the Qing (who chose to allow nominal independence as vassal/client state). Or that states like Xinjiang didn't exist and Inner Mongolia was never Mongolian.

 

[Darkath]

HOI was played quite a bit because it was banned, ironically.

But paradox probably never sold many units of their game there, because you'll mostly find pirated copies that have a fan-made chinese patch applied on it.

Unless it's a MMOG or a free to play online game with micro-transaction, it's really hard to sell games in china.