• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

diegosimeone

General
69 Badges
Oct 5, 2012
1.892
2.030
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Battle for Bosporus
This is something that always interested me but I never really bothered to go deep into the subject.

So the Romans conquered Gaul, their biggest enemy since forever, yet after that is done we don't hear much about the Gauls. I'd argue the same thing about the Iberians, but they were never relevant in Roman history so any lack of information about them is not something worth of note, at least from a Roman history point of view.

The Gauls seem to vanish from history and then all we have is Rome being sacked by Germanic people who also pretty much took over Gaul in the meantime.
 
This is something that always interested me but I never really bothered to go deep into the subject.

So the Romans conquered Gaul, their biggest enemy since forever, yet after that is done we don't hear much about the Gauls. I'd argue the same thing about the Iberians, but they were never relevant in Roman history so any lack of information about them is not something worth of note, at least from a Roman history point of view.

The Gauls seem to vanish from history and then all we have is Rome being sacked by Germanic people who also pretty much took over Gaul in the meantime.

Without being an expert, the Gauls were never Rome's greatest enemy but rather their largest bogeyman. And the threat was pretty much as substantial as other bogeymen. I'd reserve the title of "Rome's greatest enemy" to th Parthians and Sasanians, or Turks or Arabs if you want to push into the Byzantine period.

As for the Gauls under Rome they never went anywhere but simply become more and more Roman until the only thing that separated them from other Romans was the name of the province they lived in. Hence they made the ethnic transition from identifying themselves as one or another Gaulish tribe to identity themselves as Romans although with a local cultural twist. But I don't think they were less Romans than say the Romans in Italy than the Californians are less Americans than inhabitants of New England.
 
Is there any record of that actually happening though?

We know that the noblemen and elite were trying to be more Roman, but did that really translate to the population?
 
It's no surprise that Roman sources are mostly silent about sentiments in the provinces, they tend to reflect the point of view of the center. That silence masks a 400-year process of acculturation. During most of that period historians speak of a Gallo-Roman culture, indicating not a complete disappearance of the Gauls but a merger, albeit largely on Roman terms. The best documented part is religion where Romans equated Gallic gods with Roman ones, preserving some idiosyncracies while also promoting identification with the empire.
 
"Long haired Gauls and blue faced Celts!"
 
Is there any record of that actually happening though?

We know that the noblemen and elite were trying to be more Roman, but did that really translate to the population?

The common people did adopt a Romance language to replace their Celtic language. The only exception IIRC is Brittany and that may be the result of British settlement rather than a surviving indigenous Celtic language.

Caesar had pretty much crushed all tribal leaders who opposed him and killed or enslaved the members of their warrior class. The Druids were outlawed so the only high status Gauls left were those friendly to Rome. Millions of Gauls killed or sold into slavery created a cautionary example of what happened when you opposed Rome.

Caesar left Gaul for his Civil War and Rome would remain divided for decades until Augustus takes the throne. If the Gauls were going to rebel, this was their chance. The only time Gaul revolts later on it will be as a Latin Speaking Empire with its own Senate and the reason will be improved defense against the Germans rather than any Gallic identity.
 
One of Rome's early priorities in occupied territory was to establish trading posts. The previously semi-migratory and mainly hunter-gatherer populations quickly became dependent upon Roman coins and trade with Rome, many of them settling onto permanent farms near the Roman outposts and gradually integrating into Roman culture. As said, the local deities were either equated to Roman gods, or else incorporated directly into the growing Roman pantheon. It was definitely a conscious and well-thought-out decision on Rome's part to integrate the Gauls and other tribal groups into Roman culture as a form of pacification.
 
One of Rome's early priorities in occupied territory was to establish trading posts. The previously semi-migratory and mainly hunter-gatherer populations quickly became dependent upon Roman coins and trade with Rome, many of them settling onto permanent farms near the Roman outposts and gradually integrating into Roman culture. As said, the local deities were either equated to Roman gods, or else incorporated directly into the growing Roman pantheon. It was definitely a conscious and well-thought-out decision on Rome's part to integrate the Gauls and other tribal groups into Roman culture as a form of pacification.

Off the top of my head I can’t think of any people conquered by the Romans who were ”semi-migratory and mainly hunter-gatherer.” Some of the tribes of Mauretania perhaps.

The Gauls, Iberians and Germans had been farmers for thousands of years. They were not as urbanized as the Romans or the Greeks but they were settled in permanent villages and primarily fed themsrlves by agriculture.
 
The common people did adopt a Romance language to replace their Celtic language.

Care to elaborate here?

What is a Romance language in this instance and when did that adoptation occur? Do you mean that they created their own language by fusing Latin and Gallic?

Also, why would they actually do that? What would be the benefit? I get the elite, but why would the commoners do that?
 
Care to elaborate here?

What is a Romance language in this instance and when did that adoptation occur? Do you mean that they created their own language by fusing Latin and Gallic?

Also, why would they actually do that? What would be the benefit? I get the elite, but why would the commoners do that?
The middle classes want to talk to the elite and emulate the elite so obv they learn Latin.

Then the lower classes want to marry their daughters to the middle classes and get the middle classes to hire their sons so they encourage their daughters and sons to learn Latin

And unless you have some middle or upper classes who retain the native language and religion (which Gaul didn't) you quickly end up with lower classes speaking mostly bad Latin at home, and middle classes trying hard to impress the upper classes with their reasonably accent free Latin.
 
Care to elaborate here?

What is a Romance language in this instance and when did that adoptation occur? Do you mean that they created their own language by fusing Latin and Gallic?

Also, why would they actually do that? What would be the benefit? I get the elite, but why would the commoners do that?

They adopted a dialect of Latin that, following the collapse of the Empire and some Germanic influence developed into French. I don’t know when exactly the adoption occured and I don’t think that we can know when exactly the illiterate classes made the switch. Gaulish does appear to have outlived the Western Roman Empire itself in some regions. Modern French contains around 150 Gallic loanwords so there was a degree of merging but it is quite small compared to the Latin influence.

The lower classes adopting the language, religion, culture, etc. of the ruling elite is quite common. In the case of Gauls it would be useful to know the Latin language of your landlord, tax collector, merchant, military commander etc. At some point, speaking the Gallic language would start to be the mark of an unsophisticated rube who civilized people look down upon.
 
The common people did adopt a Romance language to replace their Celtic language. The only exception IIRC is Brittany and that may be the result of British settlement rather than a surviving indigenous Celtic language.

Caesar had pretty much crushed all tribal leaders who opposed him and killed or enslaved the members of their warrior class. The Druids were outlawed so the only high status Gauls left were those friendly to Rome. Millions of Gauls killed or sold into slavery created a cautionary example of what happened when you opposed Rome.

Caesar left Gaul for his Civil War and Rome would remain divided for decades until Augustus takes the throne. If the Gauls were going to rebel, this was their chance. The only time Gaul revolts later on it will be as a Latin Speaking Empire with its own Senate and the reason will be improved defense against the Germans rather than any Gallic identity.
Good points on language and Caesar's ruthlessness. However, Gauls did rebel. The first rebellions occurred even before Caesar had left. The first was Ambiorix in modern Belgium. You could see this as a continuation of resistance against the conquest but, as Ambiorix had previously accepted subservient status, you could also call it revolt; Caesar did. Vercingetorix is more clear-cut case, uniting many tribes which had been conquered several years before. After Caesar's harsh treatment of Vercingetorix, the Bellovaci also revolted.

During the civil war following Caesar's death the Morini and some Aquitanian tribes rebelled; Roman historians mention that Augustus had to restore order among them after his victory in the civil war. During Tiberius' reign, revolts by the Treveri and the Aedui were suppressed. The Batavian revolt in 68 AD may be considered as Germanic but the dividing lines are hazy both ethnically and geographically, it was definitely in the area conquered by Caesar, and the revolt spread to Gallic tribes, namely the Treveri (again) and the Lingones.

I'm sure this isn't the full list but you get the point. Certainly, most of these were localized revolts, which were put down with the aid of other Gallic tribes. Vercingetorix' achievement of a large coalition was not to be repeated. The Batavian revolt came closest, probably due to Rome's weakness during the civil wars following the death of Nero, but still only affected areas north of the Seine. So you could argue that "Gaul" didn't revolt if you mean: not in one united rebellion, but to me that's setting the bar too high.
 
I remember a line from "Wie aus Galliern Römer wurden" by Helga Botermann. She argues that urbanisation played a primary role in romanisation. Gaulish tribes were dissolved and its members resettled into newly founded cities in Gaul, where they had to conform to Roman administration (which gave an impetus to learn Latin). It also weakened tribal identity, and replaced it with an identity as a Roman citizen. On the other hand, religious traditions remained untouched, facilitated by the fact that some Gaulish gods were simply paralleled to Roman ones.
 
Is there any comparison with the Germanic tribes?
Or a timeline of any sort that shows if the Gauls were Romanized by the time the Germanic migration started?
 
Or a timeline of any sort that shows if the Gauls were Romanized by the time the Germanic migration started?

The Wikipedia article on Gaulish has a nice list of sources for the language still being spoken in some places at different times, the last being as late as the 6th Century:
Roman period[edit source]
Latin was quickly adopted by the Gaulish aristocracy after the Roman conquest to maintain their elite power and influence,[19] trilingualism in southern Gaul being noted as early as the 1st century BC.[20]

Early references to Gaulish in Gaul tend to be made in the context of problems with Greek or Latin fluency until around 400, whereas after c. 450, Gaulish begins to be mentioned in contexts where Latin has replaced "Gaulish" or "Celtic" (whatever the authors meant by those terms). For Galatia (Anatolia), there is no source explicitly indicating a 5th century language replacement:

  • During the last quarter of the 2nd century, Irenaeus, bishop of Lugdunum (present-day Lyon), apologises for his inadequate Greek, being "resident among the Keltae and accustomed for the most part to use a barbarous dialect".[21]
  • According to the Vita Sancti Symphoriani, Symphorian of Augustodunum (present-day Autun) was executed on 22 August 178 for his Christian faith. While he was being led to his execution, "his venerable mother admonished him from the wall assiduously and notable to all (?), saying in the Gaulish speech: Son, son, Symphorianus, think of your God!" (uenerabilis mater sua de muro sedula et nota illum uoce Gallica monuit dicens: 'nate, nate Synforiane, mentobeto to diuo' [22]). The Gaulish sentence has been transmitted in a corrupt state in the various manuscripts; as it stands, it has been reconstructed by Thurneysen. According to David Stifter (2012), *mentobeto looks like a Proto-Romance verb derived from Latin mens, mentis ‘mind’ and habere ‘to have’, and it cannot be excluded that the whole utterance is an early variant of Romance, or a mixture of Romance and Gaulish, instead of being an instance of pure Gaulish. On the other hand, nate is attested in Gaulish (for example in Endlicher's Glossary[23]), and the author of the Vita Sancti Symphoriani, whether or not fluent in Gaulish, evidently expects a non-Latin language to have been spoken at the time.
  • The Latin author Aulus Gellius (c. 180) mentions Gaulish alongside the Etruscan language in one anecdote, indicating that (North Italian?) Gaulish is alive at the time of writing.[24]
  • The Roman History by Cassius Dio (written AD 207-229) may imply that Cis- and Transalpine Gauls spoke the same language, as can be deduced from the following passages: (1) Book XIII mentions the principle that named tribes have a common government and a common speech, otherwise the population of a region is summarised by a geographic term, as in the case of the Spanish/Iberians.[25] (2) In Books XII and XIV, Gauls between the Pyrenees and the River Po are stated to consider themselves kinsmen.[26][27] (3) In Book XLVI, Cassius Dio explains that the defining difference between Cis- and Transalpine Gauls is the length of hair and the style of clothes (i.e., he does not mention any language difference), the Cisalpine Gauls having adopted shorter hair and the Roman toga at an early date (Gallia Togata).[28] Potentially in contrast, Caesar described the river Rhone as a frontier between the Celts and provincia nostra.[15]
  • In the Digesta XXXII, 11 of Ulpian (AD 222–228) it is decreed that fideicommissa (testamentary provisions) may also be composed in Gaulish.[29]
  • Writing at some point between c. AD 378 and AD 395, the Latin poet and scholar Decimus Magnus Ausonius, from Burdigala (present-day Bordeaux), characterizes his deceased father Iulius's ability to speak Latin as inpromptus, "halting, not fluent"; in Attic Greek, Iulius felt sufficiently eloquent.[30] This remark is sometimes taken as an indication that the first language of Iulius Ausonius (c. AD 290-378) was Gaulish,[31] but may alternatively mean that his first language was Greek. As a physician, he would have cultivated Greek as part of his professional proficiency.
  • In the Dialogi de Vita Martini I, 26 by Sulpicius Seuerus (AD 363–425), one of the partners in the dialogue utters the rhetorical commonplace that his deficient Latin might insult the ears of his partners. One of them answers: uel Celtice aut si mauis Gallice loquere dummodo Martinum loquaris ‘speak Celtic or, if you prefer, Gaulish, as long as you speak about Martin’.[32]
  • Saint Jerome (writing in AD 386/387) remarked in a commentary on St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians that the Belgic Treveri spoke almost the same language as the Galatians, rather than Latin.[33] This agrees with an earlier report in AD180 by Lucian.[34]
  • In a letter of AD 474 to his brother-in-law, Sidonius Apollinaris, bishop of Clermont in the Auvergne, states that in his younger years, "our nobles... resolved to forsake the barbarous Celtic dialect", evidently in favour of eloquent Latin.[35]
Medieval period[edit source]
  • Cassiodorus (ca. 490–585) cites in his book Variae VIII, 12, 7 (dated 526) from a letter to king Athalaric: Romanum denique eloquium non suis regionibus inuenisti et ibi te Tulliana lectio disertum reddidit, ubi quondam Gallica lingua resonauit ‘Finally you found Roman eloquence in regions that were not originally its own; and there the reading of Cicero rendered you eloquent where once the Gaulish language resounded’[36]
  • In the 6th century Cyril of Scythopolis (AD 525-559) tells a story about a Galatian monk who was possessed by an evil spirit and was unable to speak, but if forced to, could speak only in Galatian.[37]
  • Gregory of Tours wrote in the 6th century (c. 560-575) that a shrine in Auvergne which "is called Vasso Galatae in the Gallic tongue" was destroyed and burnt to the ground[38]. This quote has been held by historical linguistic scholarship to attest that Gaulish was indeed still spoken as late as the mid to late 6th century in France.[8]

Despite considerable Romanization of the local material culture, the Gaulish language is held to have survived and had coexisted with spoken Latin during the centuries of Roman rule of Gaul.[8] The exact time of the final extinction of Gaulish is unknown, but it is estimated to have been around or shortly after the middle of the 1st millennium, in the late 5th or early 6th century.[39]

Since mainly the higher classes left written records it is difficult to tell the extent of Gaulish speakers at any given time.
 
As to the final extinction of the Gaulish language, Gregory of Tours was still able to give meanings of placenames derived from Gaulish. It is however unknown whether it was still spoken or whether there was only some lingering memory about meaning of some terms. At any rate, the Council of Tours of 813, which ordered the priests to use the vernacular makes no mention of Gaulish. It is therefore safe to assume that Gaulish was a dead language by then.