• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
61 Badges
Sep 22, 2003
9.220
8.523
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
This post reflects the current policy on putting BB in events; if you don't like it, post in the discussion below and it might get changed.

The hardcoded mechanisms of badboy are a central part of the game, and in general will be left alone. BB doesn't represent a minor faux pas, it represents a near-permanent stain on a country's record which will affect how every country in the world thinks of them. I can see only three circumstances under which badboy in events is justified:

1) The country would have had changes in badboy had they done things themselves instead of by event.

The main examples of this are events which add/remove cores, grant independence, cede land or 'inherit' (only 0.25BB/prov instead of 1). When it comes to changing BB this way, however, we shouldn't change BB by as much as it would have changed naturally, because if we give someone an event to do something, we're usually indicating that it's a natural course of action, rather than just random aggression/feebleness/whatever which characterises normal BB changes. I would say the following is about right:

Inheriting a country, where the inheritance is dodgy or makes the inheritor very powerful: up to 0.5 BB * estimated number of provinces. (This is in addition to the 0.25BB/prov the player will get anyway). This would only be for really big inheritances that pose balance issues, like Granada inheriting Huguenots.

Gaining suspect cores: 1BB per core at the most, and generally somewhat lower. If you want to give out more than 1BB per core, you probably shouldn't be giving out the cores in the first place.

Dropping cores because of a failure to capture them in time, or because the provinces have been lost in disastrous fashion: This is generally a punishment for ineptitude, in which case 0BB. If however all is not lost, but the player decides to drop the cores anyway for the sake of peace, a modest BB drop might be called for, up to -0.5BB/core.

Giving up non-core land as a deliberate action: around -0.5 BB/prov. Things like 'border lords defect' don't count as deliberate, but Granada creating a Huguenot vassal in southern France does.

Giving up securely held core land and dropping all claims to it: -1BB/prov. More than that and we would have to take steps to stop the player exploiting the event as a BB sink.

2) The AI (and ONLY the AI) desperately needs help with its BB to stop a World War breaking out.

Here we can be quite generous, as the AI is extremely profligate with BB. There seems to be some support for this, but as it's an AI cheat, some people might not like it. An optional feature, perhaps?

3) A country does something exceptionally nice or nasty by the standards of the day, which is not reflected by the standard BB mechanism.

Examples of this would be internal genocide (nasty) or if a country becomes a beacon for peace and tolerance (nice). However, we shouldn't put 21st-century standards on things - in the EUII period, almost anything was seen as an internal matter and the prerogative of whichever king was the rightful ruler of a land. Besides, many rulers of the time were brutal and nasty as a matter of course, and while it made them unpopular, it wasn't usually seen as a cause for other countries to invade.

We should only fiddle with BB for things which would have a profound influence on the relations a country has over everywhere in its strategic region (eg all of Western Europe) for decades to come, not something that would only concern one or two foreign powers or a particular king.

When BB is given out, moderation is the order of the day: +/- 3BB is usually enough to send out a clear signal. Any more than this and there has to be a really good reason.
 
Last edited:
I don't think that we have different views.

I have actually only suggested BB reduction in events for two separate event structures, and don't see it as a general tool to be used.

Both of those suggested uses (reward structure for Phillip the Good and the Armenian 'independence') fall into the categories you have outlined above, so I would say that we must be on the same page.

Nice to have it up as a discussion thread, though.

My only comment is one I feel about the game generally, which is that BB for players is undercosted. You can get away with 10 times as much intolerable behaviour in EU2 as you could have in the real Europe of the period. I'd prefer to see the costs doubled for everything. But that has nothing to do with Aberration and is tangential at best.

Accordingly, the policy you outline is a good one.

Matty
 
I agree with all presented ideas.

It is just that Badboy should represent our power rather that warmongerism itself. Thus when you annex big fat country via an event all those scripted BB reductions are bad, because normally neighbouring countries would never agree on doubling the size of their enemy. I think we should add BB modifications to as many events as possible, making dealing with it a major feature of the game (or one of the major features, whatever).
 
Hi Aberrationers. I've never posted in this sub-forum, nor used your mod, but I happen to know a thing or two about this point right here, and if your willing to listen to me, I can share with you what I know.
Incompetent said:
2) The AI (and ONLY the AI) desperately needs help with its BB to stop a World War breaking out.

Here we can be quite generous, as the AI is extremely profligate with BB. This is basically an AI cheat event, but seeing as its purpose is to make the AI more competitive, it could be justified.
BB has a very big effect on AIs. Many of the wars in game between AIs, unbeknownst to most EU2 users, are indeed caused by excessive BB. WISK, once did a test on it and found out that AIs of equal size will conduct BB wars based on a mere 25 BB.

This was discussed at length in the AGCEEP sub-forum where the AGCEEPers determined to do nothing about it since making events to lower it is technically using AI cheats and they don't want them(at least the ones with the real say don't).

I however have experimented quite a bit with them myself and have AI only BB lowering events in my mod. I can only imagine that Aberration having AIs not exactly historically directed, has even more severe problems with spiral BB wars than even the AGCEEP(and they have quite alot of problems with them too).

Basically what I've done is made events like these.
Code:
#AI help for excsessive BB#
event = {
	id = 301035
	trigger = { ai = yes badboy = 22 }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "AI_EVENT"
	desc = "AI help for excsessive BB"
      date = { year = 1421 } 
	offset = 360
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "AI help for excsessive BB"
                 command = { type = stability value = 6 }
                 command = { type = badboy value = -35 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = -2 }}}
#AI help for excsessive BB#
event = {
	id = 301036
	trigger = { ai = yes badboy = 22 event = 301035 }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "AI_EVENT"
	desc = "AI help for excsessive BB"
      date = { month = april year = 1430 } 
	offset = 360
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "AI help for excsessive BB"
                 command = { type = stability value = 6 }
                 command = { type = badboy value = -15 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = -2 }}}
#AI help for excsessive BB#
event = {
	id = 301037
	trigger = { ai = yes badboy = 22 event = 301036 }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "AI_EVENT"
	desc = "AI help for excsessive BB"
      date = { month = april year = 1450 } 
	offset = 360
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "AI help for excsessive BB"
                 command = { type = stability   value = 6 }
                 command = { type = badboy   value = -15 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 120 value = -2 }}}
#AI help for excsessive BB#
event = {
	id = 301038
	trigger = { ai = yes badboy = 22 event = 301037 }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "AI_EVENT"
	desc = "AI help for excsessive BB"
      date = { month = april year = 1480 } 
	offset = 360
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "AI help for excsessive BB"
                 command = { type = stability   value = 6 }
                 command = { type = badboy   value = -15 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 120 value = -2 }}}
#AI help for excsessive BB#
event = {
	id = 301039
	trigger = { ai = yes badboy = 24 event = 301038 }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "AI_EVENT"
	desc = "AI help for excsessive BB"
      date = { month = april year = 1510 } 
	offset = 360
      deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "AI help for excsessive BB"
                 command = { type = stability   value = 6 }
                 command = { type = badboy   value = -15 }
                 command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 120 value = -2 }}}
This makes BB get lowered below the AI BB threshold, which is lower than ours. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. The 2nd BB lowering event has the first event as a neccessary trigger and so on, so they won't fire right away and have to wait until the next time that the AI exceeds the BB limit in the trigger.

I can testify personally that they make a big difference in AI performances.
 
Dear Idontlikeforms,

Thank you for your contribution.

I personally will support this approach. I have used also your ai Bible and found it very valuable.

I had wondered at times about such events myself and whether they would help reduce the amount of conflict in the game, and therefor the number of minors that get gobbled up.

I can accept that other players and modder do not want ai-specific elements, but respectfully I think that approach is short-sighted. I am a big fan of anything that helps a game to be more challenging to players and which enables the - let's say it - inept ai, to perform a little better.

I have a number of ai only events in mind for Aberration as well, relating to the building of manufactories, which they are essentially incapable of building. Or, to duplicate the effect of manufacturies by pumping their techs. In this way, players can't steal those manus.

The events you suggest and the principle of ai-only events is something I plan to raise soon within this forum, as the new creative team gets underway.

Regards,

MattyG
 
MattyG said:
I had wondered at times about such events myself and whether they would help reduce the amount of conflict in the game, and therefor the number of minors that get gobbled up.
I can vouche for them reducing the amount of wars. This would indirectly reduce the amount of minors getting gobbled up too but I'm afraid it won't stop this problem cold. It's the way the engine is designed that causes 1 province minors to die so quickly and I'm unaware of anything that can truly FIX this problem.

It will also have the indirect effect of reducing revolts, civil wars, slow teching, inflation, colonizing, merchant placing, diplo-annexing, etc. etc. etc.