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Genocide mechanics

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Wildrake said:
The term "genocide" includes many different things besides death camps. It includes deportations (Surgun), it includes death camps (Holocaust) and direct massacres (Circassian genocide). It may also include inaction rather than active direct actions (Irish famine).
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Irish famine is outside of the time-frame, and could be replicated by the potato-blight striking and the British stealing all their food.

It's really sounding to me like this isn't really a big problem, people are just being weird (FOR COMPLETELY NORMAL REASONS I'M SURE) about wanting to have a button they can push for this.
 
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Wildrake said:
The term "genocide" includes many different things besides death camps. It includes deportations (Surgun), it includes death camps (Holocaust) and direct massacres (Circassian genocide). It may also include inaction rather than active direct actions (Irish famine).
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We're not using that definition. We're using "killing population directly in ways that are not already included in EU V"
 
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Wildrake said:
The term "genocide" includes many different things besides death camps. It includes deportations (Surgun), it includes death camps (Holocaust) and direct massacres (Circassian genocide). It may also include inaction rather than active direct actions (Irish famine).
Click to expand...
This thread started because someone was asking for genocide in the sense of death camps/direct massacres during peacetime to eliminate undesired pops as a mechanic, and specifically said deportations were not enough for them. Most people have taken that meaning, plus the dictionary defines "genocide" as the "(1) deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with (2) the aim of destroying that nation or group." (Oxford Dictionary). As such, although some people expand the definition, most of us in the thread have been referencing this narrower definition, which does not technically include deportation or most pillaging in this period.

Sorry if a lot of us have been talking past you. There is much more support for deportations and pillaging in game, since that happened frequently during this period. On the other hand, most of us oppose a "government exterminates pops" button because it would be historically inaccurate and unrealistic as a mechanic. The Taino situation is being handled by the pestilence and slavery mechanics.

There are only a handful of events from this period, like the Dzungar, that do not fall under deportation and pillaging which are already modeled. It would mess up the game if ahistorical extermination programs were introduced. I would also point out that you don't see people on the forums calling for slavery not to be modeled, even though that practice was terrible and remains a big political issue.
 
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PortDoubloon01 said:
This thread started because someone was asking for genocide in the sense of death camps/direct massacres during peacetime to eliminate undesired pops as a mechanic, and specifically said deportations were not enough for them. Most people have taken that meaning, plus the dictionary defines "genocide" as the "(1) deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with (2) the aim of destroying that nation or group." (Oxford Dictionary). As such, although some people expand the definition, most of us in the thread have been referencing this narrower definition, which does not technically include deportation or most pillaging in this period.

Sorry if a lot of us have been talking past you. There is much more support for deportations and pillaging in game, since that happened frequently during this period. On the other hand, most of us oppose a "government exterminates pops" button because it would be historically inaccurate and unrealistic as a mechanic. The Taino situation is being handled by the pestilence and slavery mechanics.

There are only a handful of events from this period, like the Dzungar, that do not fall under deportation and pillaging which are already modeled. It would mess up the game if ahistorical extermination programs were introduced. I would also point out that you don't see people on the forums calling for slavery not to be modeled, even though that practice was terrible and remains a big political issue.
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I responded to their incorrect definition, which requires death camps. The Qing empire massacred 80% of the Dzungars without death camps.
 
SAmaster said:
Irish famine is outside of the time-frame, and could be replicated by the potato-blight striking and the British stealing all their food.

It's really sounding to me like this isn't really a big problem, people are just being weird (FOR COMPLETELY NORMAL REASONS I'M SURE) about wanting to have a button they can push for this.
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Read the thread before, the Dzungar genocide happened in the game timeframe.
 
Grandpa Maur said:
We're not using that definition. We're using "killing population directly in ways that are not already included in EU V"
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What ways aren't included though? You can deport them and recruit them and starve them out by parking an army in a location. Do we really need a button labeled genocide?what actual gameplay benefits would that actually add? How would it be substantially different from the other three?

Edit: oh and you can enslave them. There's only so many ways a person needs in order to exterminate the French and British, asking for a genocide button is really asking for a lot.
 
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It sounds like what we need to portray 99% of all mass killings and genocides in this period is:
  • A food system which allows for starvation
  • An especially exploitative slavery system which can cause massive death tolls - though all slavery should have higher mortality rates.
  • Slave revolts killing a large number of non-slave pops when occupying a location
  • A way to forcibly relocate pops within your territory, which kills some portion of the pops in the process
  • A way to expel minorities from your territories, which kills some portion of the pops in the process
  • Raiding causing pop-deaths
  • Sacking towns or cities causing massive loss of life
Some amount of that we already have confirmed, even if the mechanic needs improvement from what we've seen.

If the Dzungar Genocide is really only example of its kind during the game's period - that is the only example of direct, systemic mass killing with the express goal of eradicating a group entirely - which isn't covered by any of the other mechanics, then it seems like a good case for an event or situation. It does not seem like there should be a bespoke mechanic just to portray this single outlier event which appears to be the only example of its kind in the period.
 
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Wildrake said:
I responded to their incorrect definition, which requires death camps. The Qing empire massacred 80% of the Dzungars without death camps.
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It was a rare event and shouldn't be something you can do willy nilly. The emperor was frustrated as the realm spent a lot of resources conquering the Dzungars, set up puppet Khans who pledged loyalty to them, only to get rebelled against. Resulting him getting hot headed and ordering a final invasion and the destruction of the nation and all its "rebellious" fighting aged men.

Most people were not genocidal warlord maniacs. So it should be through emergent events if anything.
 
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Since it's probably relevant to this conversation:
There is a cabinet action to expel people, it doesn't seem tied to a specific culture or religion though.

EXPEL.png
 
Hail Blorg said:
Since it's probably relevant to this conversation:
There is a cabinet action to expel people, it doesn't seem tied to a specific culture or religion though.

View attachment 1303250
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Expel 50% of a province that doesn't have your culture, turn off the edict, bring in your people, congrats you effectively have done it. For the intents of controlling a region, cracking and packing minorities is probably sufficient.
Please no one think I actually advocate for this practice as it's evil.
 
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