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Hmm... my english is as rusty as my thoughts are cloudy! :) I'll try to explain (but thus is really just a brain-storming activity, no need to take it seriously). Remove the name "Castle" as such structures were virtually non-existant. Rename it "Military" and we have 8 new slots to fill with different kinds of military investments which can affect retinue cap, troop quality, local levy reinforce speed etc. first hand, defensiveness and fort level second. Remove the namne "Manufatories" as such economic activity were virtually non-existant during Gempei. Rename it "Specialization" and you have 4 slots and 8 choices for representing investments in regional economic activities to expand tax revenue, supply level etc. first hand, retinue cap, hiring ninjas etc. second. Having only 4 slots and a steep prize, it goes a little way in representing path dependancy, where as starting to develop a region in a certain direction usually becomes its defning feature. Or something like that.
 
I understand castles, villeges and other buildings simply as the military and economy levels of that province. To me it is equal which name they are given. If not, I could not accept the name of lv. 8 villege (Geisha District)... By the way, the name of the buildings are easy changiable and workshop would be better than manufactory.

One question: vanilla is already some specializations. What lacks?

We can use province modifiers and events which appear only in this Genpei scenario, if we can build a basic economic system. After that we can specialize this system for the Genpei, Kamakura or Sengoku era.

Another problem of the provincial improvement is the lack of provincial decisions. We can "develop" a guild building to the next level, but only by events.
 
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Modding is just out of my league, so I will leave it to you guys! :) Gempei is the period I'm most interested in, and reading on the forum, you mod has absolutely the most promise.

Workshop or manufactory, I believe that applying a proto-industry solution to the development of martial skill (troop quality) in the Gempei period risk to miss the mark. It is not the sword that kills, it the skill of the hand wielding it. Worskhops might change the number if swords, but that should really impact the cap more, not the shock or fire values. Somethings amiss there, but its probably a vanilla problem. Maybe you should even consider changing it to that "dojo" solution other games use (sword dojo, spear dojo etc)? But that has its own set of problems.

Castles might be opted in or out depending on how we understand them, but it would be nice if you could add yamashiro, hilltop stockades, as they were used. That little picture representing "Stone base" might be changed (in vanilla it feels misplaced too)?

For events, it would be nice if you could inclide "pilgrimage" (as Kiyomori did at one occation). Pilgrimages should have an instant return in honour, but could be exepensive and tie you up for a period of time.

Keep up the good work!
 
As you say, there is a lack of provincial decision making, which is troublesome. Some structures costs gold, other do not, some evolve sequentially (have a prerequisite), some don't. Vanilla does not make it easy for us in this respect. I will follow your thread, try your mod and give it some more thought!
 
Dojo means school of arts and became popular in the Edo period (though some of them have established in the late Sengoku era). There were some famous workshops since the Kamakura period, and it was very important for rulers to get rich iron mines and skilled artisans of metall works.

About the pilgrimage event, I have already added in my test version. The emperor asks characters with high court ranks to support his travel. I have also added some other demand events like repair the palace or a temple.
 
Yup, I know, it has its own set of problems and is not good, even as an approximation. I'm just thinking that the concept where pounding out a larger quantity of speartips, arrowheads or swords directly impact the quality of soldiers risks being just as ahistorical. But I currently can't see my way around the problem. But we will continue to think about it!
 
Manufactories might not be the best word for it, but there was plenty of specialized production during the Genpei war in Japan in many commodities. Japan had a long tradition in this-during the Nara/Heian periods (even pre-Nara), families/'clans' would specialize and the guild system that sprung up both promoted monopolies and focused economic development. Right now I'm reading a fascinating study of lamp oil producers in the Kansai area and how they interacted with warrior, Imperial, and religious officials. Things weren't quite as well developed as they became during the Edo period, but surprisingly well organized and advanced for their day.
 
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chatnoir17 said:
Dojo means school of arts and became popular in the Edo period (though some of them have established in the late Sengoku era).
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Right. Genpei war 'armies' can more accurately be described as 'warbands', and in many ways were more like bandit groups than the later larger and better organized armies of the Sengoku. Most training took place between the families that made up the warband, with the vets teaching the rookies-nothing like the formalized (and often BS) dojos that sprang up in the Edo period that often taught stylized techniques more suited for one-on-one dueling than for practical warfare.
 
Tatsunoshi said:
Manufactories might not be the best word for it, but there was plenty of specialized production during the Genpei war in Japan in many commodities. Japan had a long tradition in this-during the Nara/Heian periods (even pre-Nara), families/'clans' would specialize and the guild system that sprung up both promoted monopolies and focused economic development. Right now I'm reading a fascinating study of lamp oil producers in the Kansai area and how they interacted with warrior, Imperial, and religious officials. Things weren't quite as well developed as they became during the Edo period, but surprisingly well organized and advanced for their day.
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Indeed. My father comes from Imatachi province (Echizen), there is a villege which has produced paper since ca. 750. Though I won't create a province modifier to represent it.

About special productions, I think we should concentrate on the things which are important for the game goal: Conquer Japan. We don't have a trade system like EU3 Rome or EU3, so adding modifiers or buildings like "trade (manufactory) of grain, salt, paper, henf, fish etc.." is too trivial and endless work. Maybe we can learn more from HoI series and choose a few production, though some basic goods are already chosen in vanilla.
 
Hakhen01 said:
Yup, I know, it has its own set of problems and is not good, even as an approximation. I'm just thinking that the concept where pounding out a larger quantity of speartips, arrowheads or swords directly impact the quality of soldiers risks being just as ahistorical. But I currently can't see my way around the problem. But we will continue to think about it!
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I guess weapon workshops could contribute both quality and quantity of the army. The army having Masamune sword should be stronger than other groups.
 
We've gotta start moving somehow and somewhere.
I'd say to create a mini genpei mod focused on Shikoku and see how the game works for player and AI.
We also need a separate forum, possibly private
 
GShock said:
We also need a separate forum, possibly private
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Why separate? This thread is almost only active one on this sub forum, so we can discuss in this thread, or open a new one. And I won't go without a compass or a navigation system...
 
Because if we allow 100 people to post their opinions and requests we will spend more time debating than working on the mod.
Honestly, I really can't take anymore of having to besiege 500 castles, each with full garrison inside. I can't wait to start fixing at least the limiters and we have enough material already to begin on Shikoku with a test version.
 
GShock said:
Because if we allow 100 people to post their opinions and requests we will spend more time debating than working on the mod.
Honestly, I really can't take anymore of having to besiege 500 castles, each with full garrison inside. I can't wait to start fixing at least the limiters and we have enough material already to begin on Shikoku with a test version.
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There are only a few people in this thread and it seems that max. 10 players use this mod.

As I said, the limiting castles is not easy and I don't know how to fix it. Beside this I don't have enough informations about Shikoku or other areas in the Genpei Period too.
 
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Joel M Bridge said:
So is the objective of this game is to buy court title instead take land?
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Gettiing court ranks is one of the objectives of this mod, but THE objective is still conquering Japan. I just want to change the system with the imperial court more reastic and interactional (and bit more difficult), which worked well at least until 17th century.
 
chatnoir17 said:
As I said, the limiting castles is not easy and I don't know how to fix it. Beside this I don't have enough informations about Shikoku or other areas in the Genpei Period too.
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Whatever solution we find it's surely going to be better than the vanilla version. It's not that they researched... all Kori are the same in Vanilla but we've got to start somewhere and GEOGRAPHY is the key. Rich farmland is flat, mountain is poor. About the limiters, only the DEVs can tell. There's probably hidden somewhere but I don't know where either.

Surely I can't play vanilla anymore. I am fed up of seeing the AI taking no attrition loss and coming at you with tens of thousands of men without using levy (it does but it's not getting resetted) so instead when you attack you are under attrition and with all castles at 5th level and in full garrison present + levy.

The AI just is too quick at developing (insanely quick, totally artificial) and if we can't set the inability to build fortress level 5 it's game over. It's looking very very bad.

Of all the things we discussed so far, what do you think you can do and what do you think you can't? (It means what is possible and what is not possible according to your knowledge of the game)
 
GShock said:
Surely I can't play vanilla anymore. I am fed up of seeing the AI taking no attrition loss and coming at you with tens of thousands of men without using levy (it does but it's not getting resetted) so instead when you attack you are under attrition and with all castles at 5th level and in full garrison present + levy.

The AI just is too quick at developing (insanely quick, totally artificial) and if we can't set the inability to build fortress level 5 it's game over. It's looking very very bad.
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I am not sure which clan in this mod you play. Do you have the same problem with this Genpei Mod? The game balance of this mod is quite different from that of vanilla.
I would also suggest to increase building time for each castle or villege. It would also solve your problem.

Of all the things we discussed so far, what do you think you can do and what do you think you can't? (It means what is possible and what is not possible according to your knowledge of the game)
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All thing what I can do is scripting events and decisions. About other things I really need a help. If I could have gotten nice pictures I could add buildings, but my paint skill is not enough for changing interface completely.
By the way, I won't also change only castle sizes. They relate to other features in game, so I would wait until some other ideas come to me. I wish I could show you a general plan someday.
 
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An Idea of the limitation of castles and villeges

Each kori has a geographical character as "guild building"at the game start.

I. How to make?
Make guild buildings "Mountanious Province", "Hilly Province", "Plain Province" and "Coastal Province" and set them in the province files. These buildings could have some modifiers like defense effeciency etc.

II. The way of the limitation
The villege size depends on the geography. For example, Lv.3 building can not be built if the building "Mountanious Province" exists in that province (use "not_if_x_exists" command). The castle size also depends on the villege size. Lv.8 castle can not be built in a poor province, since such a large castle should require some economical basements (town, population etc.).
With this way, we can make a limitation system which depends on the geography.

III. Problems
- The Player and Ai can remove the geograhical buildings. It breaks this limitation system.
- We loose one slot for other buildings.
- It could bring other game balance issue both on income and military power.
 
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