Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Delurker]

Some more very quick changes:
1) Province 2203 is simply misspelled. It should be Kakheti, not Kahketi.
2) Kakheti should have wine as its trade good, not copper. Having so many of the other provinces in the region with wine as their trade good but not Kakheti is weird - it's like surrounding Bordeaux with wine provinces but giving them copper, since it's the most important wine region in the whole of Georgia. I'm not at all sure it ever was a copper mining area - Kartli was to some extent, sure, but I can't really find any evidence for Kakheti.
3) If Kakheti is taken over by Russia, its dynamic name should be Kakhetia if it isn't already. And Imereti's should be Imeretia.

 

[Delurker]

I’ve just seen that the Devs are working on the Caucasus region, which I’m very happy to see. I have some more suggestions that I hope will make it into the next patch. This time I’d like to talk about Terrain and Trade Goods.

Terrain:

Every single province of Georgia except Kahketi [sic – see above for why that’s wrong] is currently mountains. Although Georgia is a very mountainous country, it is not mountainous everywhere. In particular, the western provinces of Guria and Mingrelia [sic] are substantially lowland provinces as they are in the watershed of the Mtkvari river (Edit: whoops, I meant the Rioni River) as it reaches the Black Sea. (see relief map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...gia.svg#/media/File:Relief_Map_of_Georgia.svg) The problem is that currently Guria is supposed to encompass modern Adjara, which is mountainous, and more crucially Mingrelia is supposed to encompass part of Svaneti, which is extremely mountainous. Although there are arguments for Guria being classed as coastline or forest, my suggestion is that Guria splits the difference and becomes hills. Mingrelia, which has the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkheti_National_Park, should have marsh. And a new province of Svaneti should be created to the North – a 1/1/1 with wool as trade good and mountain terrain. It could possibly have a high level fort as a representation of the Svan towers there. If and only if Svaneti is split off, this also allows Imereti, which has part of Svaneti too in the current version, to become hills terrain. I’d like to add that this would not make Georgia significantly harder to defend as there are mountain provinces surrounding all the proposed changes, plus the suggested terrains all give combat penalties anyway.

As an aside, I’d also like to open up the discussion a bit about Abkhazia and similar areas – what sort of terrain should somewhere with a fertile coastal strip that rapidly rises to mountains have? There seem to be different answers in different parts of the world. More generally, the issue with Georgia is that although there are mountains, the valleys are extremely fertile – this isn’t Tibet or wherever, and that complicates the terrain choices a bit I think.


Trade goods:

Having looked at Kakheti’s trade good and why it wasn’t correct in a previous post, I investigated the trade goods in the region. Here’s what I came up with:

Kartli is fine to be dyes. However, they specialised in Armenian cochineal, so when New World cochineal turned up they would have had to have adapted substantially. It might be nice to have an event giving the possibility of switching trade goods or having to invest more in the trade to “upgrade it” once the New World comes online. Georgia was also a centre of silk production, particularly in Kartli I *think*. Although I can’t find out which province it came from, Georgia was exporting silk to *Persia* in the 17th and 18th century, so that could be the alternative trade good. (http://eprints.iliauni.edu.ge/997/1/JPS_001_02_04-Sanikidze.pdf) Anyway, I’m getting side-tracked, but I might well write this up in more detail shortly.

Imereti and Mingrelia: I’d like to deal with these provinces together because I’ve found evidence for several trade goods but it’s not quite clear which ones should go in each of them. Those are grain, wine, and silk (see above). So I suggest that Imereti has silk (citation here: https://webcache.googleusercontent....pment-Opportunities+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) instead of cloth as a substitute for Kartli, and Mingrelia has wine – this is Georgia after all – it needs some wine provinces. I should say I can find no mention of Imereti producing cloth so I'm not sure why that's the current trade good.

Abkhazia as wine is fine.

Guria is another slightly tricky one. I suppose fish is an okay choice but Georgia was never really a maritime country and fish doesn’t feature much in Georgian cuisine. Grain is probably better. Guria grew a lot of tea and citrus, and I’ve seen reports of cotton possibly too, but I believe that the first two are after the game’s time-frame and I’m not sure about the third. Cotton would be a thought though for some variety.

As for Samtskhe, Vakushi Bagrationi sells it as more of a grain province, but also mentions viticulture. In terms of accuracy, grain is probably better, and if Mingrelia gets wine, Samtskhe should have grain to balance it. (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ldFCAAAAcAAJ&pg=PP9&redir_esc=y#v=twopage&q&f=true)

Three provinces absolutely need to change their trade good from wine. Both Alania and Kabardia to the North need to change it as I can find absolutely no evidence for wine being grown there. If Alania is taken to include Ossetian territories, they produced wool and had iron deposits, which I think should be their new trade good. Otherwise if we’re describing it as strictly the lowlands it should probably be grain. Kabardia should be grain.

The other province that needs to change is Caffa. It should definitely have slaves as its trade good, not wine. The city of Caffa was one of the largest slave markets in Europe *before* the Crimean Tatars took over. Afterwards it only became bigger and other places in the province also started selling slaves. (I have some suggestions for the Crimean Tatars that I’ll polish up at some point and post but this is long enough already.)

Finally, I’d like to add a plea to increase development in Kartli and Imereti in particular, but add devastation to compensate. Georgia was and is a very fertile country, but had just undergone invasions by Timur, and had not yet properly got back on its feet (and was about to have Tbilisi sacked in 1444 by QQ. - edit: sorry, it had already been sacked in 1440.) I’d love to see some good demographic figures but Rayfield says that the population of Georgia declined from 5M to 2M people after Tamerlane – unfortunately without a citation) https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl...I9hEMvTmh89BE1sr-c7lTHRQw#v=onepage&q&f=false page 96 Even bearing in mind that that Georgia pre-Tamerlane was bigger, that could be 3 or 4 million people. This would allow Georgia to flourish if they managed to hold it together, as they did eventually in the second half of the 19th century when they were not constantly being invaded or fighting one another. (edit: having read around on these forums I understand that there's been some debate about these demographic figures and I'm aware that they're not particularly reliable, so I should clarify when I say increasing their development I'm talking about adding 2 or 3 per stat, not 9 or 10 or whatever.)

Bumping up Kakheti by a little bit (say +1 on each) would also not go amiss (and Kakheti should have some devastation too, but less than Kartli and Imereti).

 

[Delurker]

And one more event:

“Arrival of Capuchin monks”

Triggers:

Year = at least 1626

Georgia is Orthodox
Papal State exists and is Catholic


“The Theatine Capuchin monks Pietro Avitable, Giacomo Di Stefano and Giovanni Filonia have arrived on our shores from their base in Italy and have set themselves up in *Odishi*/Samegrelo/Mingrelia. They have come to pray for our souls and do good works. Though they are Catholic, not Orthodox, they come bearing useful knowledge from the West, and may aid us in finding Christian allies against our rivals.”

We shall find a use for these clerics.

(*Odishi* (i.e. Mingrelia) converts to Catholicism)

Georgia gains +2 tolerance of heretics

+50 relationship with Papal States

Institution spread +20% for 100 years

Clergy loses 10 loyalty


We shall never accept these heretics!

-1 tolerance of heretics

-30 relationship with Papal State

Clergy gains 10 loyalty


Context:

Capuchin monks arrived in Georgia in 1626 and set up permanently in the 1660s. They spread learning in the form of medical knowledge and were very important in the introduction of printing to the country.

They’re also part of a bit of a “what might have been” of Georgian history. In the late 17th and early 18th centuries Catholicism was gaining sympathy in Georgia, at least among the elite, due to the aforementioned new learning it was providing and the possible Western alliances it could forge. Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani, who converted to Catholicism, was persecuted by the Orthodox Church and it never really went anywhere in the end. But given Georgia’s church was drawing closer to the Catholic Church throughout the period and it was independent of any other Orthodox church, it’s not necessarily impossible that a very determined and ruthless ruler could have converted Georgia to Catholicism, and thus changed the whole trajectory of Georgian history by bringing it closer to the West and further from Russia. Although in real life Mingrelia didn’t become Catholic (or at least not enough to be represented as such in the game) converting it is a way of giving Georgian provinces a chance to flip from Orthodoxy to Catholicism within the game mechanics, and gives the player a possible choice. It also should trigger some existing events about how the Orthodox Church is disquieted by the new faith, which makes sense from a historical perspective. Plus Mingrelia can be reconverted anyway fairly quickly if the player decides not to bother converting Georgia.

Again, I’m easy on the exact amount of loyalty lost by the event or whatever.

Citation: Page 149-150 of the Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

This looks great can't wait to see if the devs see this, and if they do, what they think.

 

[Delurker]

This looks great can't wait to see if the devs see this, and if they do, what they think.

Thanks, that's very kind!

The one key other change that I've avoided discussing would be to deal with the breakup of the country somehow at the start of the game's timeframe. At the moment I'm not quite sure I have the skills to work out how to translate it into game terms, but it's very very important and I'd love to see it - whether by starting with the country split, having Wars of the Roses-style events, or a combination of the two, since the process defined the rest of the 15th century and in turn basically the whole game period for Georgia. It would require a new Kartli tag and a Kakheti tag at least though. All the broken up kingdoms and principalities would have to have permanent claims on the whole of Georgia but they could have the same National Ideas and things. If anyone would like a list of rulers of any of the kingdoms or principalities with some possible stats for at least some of them, I'm happy to oblige, as Rayfield's book contains all that information.
One quick thing that could be done regardless at the very least is to have Samtskhe start with extremely high autonomy and/or rebels, since Ivane II Jaqeli had effectively made it into an independent principality at game start.

I'd also love to give Georgia some kind of bonus (like 10%) to wine production in particular but I'm not sure if that's possible within the game.

Finally, I'm a little ambivalent that the effect of my proposed changes would be to make it hardest to develop Kartli of all the major provinces, when in reality it contains the biggest city throughout the period i.e. Tbilisi, and was one of the "big three". I'm not totally sure I see a way out of it though - Tbilisi was certainly a centre of trade in the period before the Timurids invaded, but it was destroyed repeatedly and gradually eclipsed once the Silk Road became less important. Moreover, it was always very difficult to build infrastructure throughout Georgia (there's some great quotes in the Rayfield book about the Russians trying in the 19th century.) Still - maybe Restoration of Fortresses and Churches could be buffed a little? This is just me musing now...

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

Thanks, that's very kind!

The one key other change that I've avoided discussing would be to deal with the breakup of the country somehow at the start of the game's timeframe. At the moment I'm not quite sure I have the skills to work out how to translate it into game terms, but it's very very important and I'd love to see it - whether by starting with the country split, having Wars of the Roses-style events, or a combination of the two, since the process defined the rest of the 15th century and in turn basically the whole game period for Georgia. It would require a new Kartli tag and a Kakheti tag at least though. All the broken up kingdoms and principalities would have to have permanent claims on the whole of Georgia but they could have the same National Ideas and things. If anyone would like a list of rulers of any of the kingdoms or principalities with some possible stats for at least some of them, I'm happy to oblige, as Rayfield's book contains all that information.
One quick thing that could be done regardless at the very least is to have Samtskhe start with extremely high autonomy and/or rebels, since Qvarqvare II had effectively made it into an independent principality at game start.

I'd also love to give Georgia some kind of bonus (like 10%) to wine production in particular but I'm not sure if that's possible within the game.

Finally, I'm a little ambivalent that the effect of my proposed changes would be to make it hardest to develop Kartli of all the major provinces, when in reality it contains the biggest city throughout the period i.e. Tbilisi, and was one of the "big three". I'm not totally sure I see a way out of it though - Tbilisi was certainly a centre of trade in the period before the Timurids invaded, but it was destroyed repeatedly and gradually eclipsed once the Silk Road became less important. Moreover, it was always very difficult to build infrastructure throughout Georgia (there's some great quotes in the Rayfield book about the Russians trying in the 19th century.) Still - maybe Restoration of Fortresses and Churches could be buffed a little? This is just me musing now...

Your welcome.

 

[moscal]

Armenians and Georgians were (and are) in conflict with each other. So should be few events lead to negative opinions and CB against each other (similar to events "Turko-Persian Conflicts").

Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations

30% is too great. This give "resistance to coalitions"

 

[Delurker]

Armenians and Georgians were (and are) in conflict with each other. So should be few events lead to negative opinions and CB against each other (similar to events "Turko-Persian Conflicts")."

Do you have any citations for that? In the game period Armenia had already been dismembered so Georgia never went to war with "Armenia", per se. Erekle II treated Armenians badly but he's the only example I can find, and he was towards the end of the period (and note they were subjects of Persia so it wasn't necessarily anti-Armenian sentiment motivating him.) There were plenty of Armenians in Georgia at least who basically got along okay (I don't know about the reverse) and they seemed to rub along okay in Persia after the deportations from my limited information. In fact, they shared a pretty similar history as the only Christian countries in the South Caucasus. Both among the earliest countries to embrace Christianity, both with unique alphabets, both surrounded by Muslims, both split apart by Persia and the Ottomans, both suffering mass deportations to Persia. They may belong to different sects of Christianity, and that did have some bearing on quite how friendly they were as independent kingdoms, but they were still clearly more friendly to one another than they were to most other groups in the region. I was actually tempted to suggest making them Historic Friends (which I've seen suggested elsewhere) along with Trebizond, since Georgia had no interest in attacking fellow Christians during this period and in fact was desperate for Christian allies (hence trying very hard indeed to get Catholic countries and Russia as allies.)

Obviously the 20th century is a whole other kettle of fish, but (to state the obvious) that's not when the game is set.

 

[Delurker]

30% is too great. This give "resistance to coalitions"

As for the 30%, I'm just quoting the existing NIs - I don't really have a view on that one but it's not totally unreasonable - Georgia struggled to get alliances but 1) not for want of trying and 2) they were never *hated* by anyone as far as I can tell, just ignored. There wasn't really ever a time in Georgian history that there would need to be a coalition against them to stop their expansion (maybe under David the Builder or Tamar I suppose) so historically that's neither here nor there.

 

[Asakhra]

Re. the Sayat-Nova and Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani events: IIRC, Great Person events tend to give you the option of either a passive bonus to your nation (as yours do now) or a 3rd-level advisor for your court. Maybe add an option to those events like "Give him a position in our court," where instead of the bonus, you get an advisor? Just a suggestion. I definitely approve of more flavour for Georgia, by the way, and the Caucasus more generally. The whole region is pretty underrepresented right now.

 

[Delurker]

Re. the Sayat-Nova and Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani events: IIRC, Great Person events tend to give you the option of either a passive bonus to your nation (as yours do now) or a 3rd-level advisor for your court. Maybe add an option to those events like "Give him a position in our court," where instead of the bonus, you get an advisor? Just a suggestion. I definitely approve of more flavour for Georgia, by the way, and the Caucasus more generally. The whole region is pretty underrepresented right now.

That's a great idea! I think I actually had it in my draft for my original post, but it obviously got lost on the way to the actual forum. Sayat-Nova would obviously be an Artist. Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani is probably best represented as a Statesman because of his wide-ranging influence over the reforms in Kartli-Kakheti, although there's a bit of an argument for him being a Diplomat (due to his mission to France) or even an Artist (due to his literary career.)

Speaking of possible Great People, there's a reasonable case for getting Giorgi Saakadze from 1605 as either an Army Organiser or a General with high Army Tradition (high manoeuvre and shock especially. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgi_Saakadze) (And maybe Anton I as a theologian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_I_of_Georgia). Unfortunately I don't have time to write up biographies of them now. I'm also conscious that I have absolutely no flavour for the 1500s so if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears.

 

[Delurker]

Giorgi Saakadze could get an event after about 10 years that he's launched an uprising, putting a stack of rebels in Kartli with him as leader, since he was clearly trying to become King. And Sayat-Nova could also have an event about him falling in love with the King's sister and giving the option of either dismissing him, losing his bonuses and a little prestige, or keeping him but losing prestige/legitimacy. But maybe that's a bit too historically contingent.

 

[Yiyo]

Very good points, Delurker. Just curious, are you Georgian?

 

[RagingMonkey]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

Have you seen the most recent dev diary? And if you have, what are your thoughts on the changes?

 

[JonSnow]

Regarding latest developments diary.

I don't think in 1444 Georgia should have three tags. Maybe two (Georgia and vassal Samtskhe) but not three. In 1444 Imereti was still part of the Georgian Kingdom under the rule of Vakhtang. Central government was weak but I don't think imereti was an independent state at that point.

Skirmishes escalated after his death in 1446. Imereti officially separated from Georgia in 1463 at the Battle of Chikhori when Giorgi VIII King of Georgia lost the battle with Imeretians.

One can insert massive uprising at the start of the game in Imereti region instead of giving them independence from the day 1.

Source: my Georgian history book/teacher.

 

[3ishop]

Regarding latest developments diary.

I don't think in 1444 Georgia should have three tags. Maybe two (Georgia and vassal Samtskhe) but not three. In 1444 Imereti was still part of the Georgian Kingdom under the rule of Vakhtang. Central government was weak but I don't think imereti was an independent state at that point.

Skirmishes escalated after his death in 1446. Imereti officially separated from Georgia in 1463 at the Battle of Chikhori when Giorgi VIII King of Georgia lost the battle with Imeretians.

One can insert massive uprising at the start of the game in Imereti region instead of giving them independence from the day 1.

Source: my Georgian history book/teacher.

I think they've done it so Georgia doesn't always get wiped out within a few years of the game start. If they have a huge uprising they will be too weak early on and just get hit by the other nations that they are hostile with.

 

[Delurker]

I'm afraid I'm travelling at the moment so I can't give a full reaction post yet, but to answer some queries: I'm not Georgian and don't speak Georgian either unfortunately. JonSnow is accurate historically but I can see why the Devs did it the way they did.
In terms of what I think of the Dev Diary's changes, I like all of them (except they've now misspelled Tbilisi) but I'd like more detail - I'd like to see Kakheti as a tag in particular but if they're basically simulating post-breakup Georgia they need more tags -it's a bit of a halfway house right now. I really like what they seem to have done with Samtskhe though.
Top requests remaining:
1) Fix Tbilisi's name
2) Change the vassal income NI
3) Add the Darial Pass
4) Add some flavour events
5) Make some Western Georgian provinces (especially the new Guria) non-mountains
6) Change Kakheti's trade good to wine
If they do those things they'll have got rid of the really egregious issues.

 

[Delurker]

Oh, and 7) Mingrelia should be renamed, ideally to Odishi (what the principality was called) but Samegrelo (the modern Georgian name for the region) and Sabediani (which emphasises that the Dadiani family owned it) are also options.

 

[Barricadas]

(*Odishi* (i.e. Mingrelia) converts to Catholicism)

Georgia gains +2 tolerance of heretics

+50 relationship with Papal States

Institution spread +20% for 100 years

Clergy loses 10 loyalty

Even though I liked this event I believe that your suggested bonuses are way too powerful and unrealistic to be honest. And since when Catholic priests are known for their innovations and spreading technology apart from the Jesuit Order?

My humble suggestion would be:
+2 tolerance of heretics until the monarch death
+50 relationship with Papal States
+1 diplomatic reputation
-1 tolerance of true faith until the monarch death