Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Delurker]

I've had another think about the Kartli/Kakheti/Imereti/Georgian National Ideas, and having read some past threads, I think I might support adding a NI for army tradition, given how many good generals Georgia produced, especially once it came under Persian influence:

Excellent Generalship = +1 Army Tradition per year. Caucasian ideas already has +0.5 so it should be at least as good as that.

"Our generals have won fame throughout the region for their quality since the days of the Mkhargrzelis under Queen Tamar. We are fortunate to have such fine military leaders."

I'd take out the Diplo Rep idea I think - Georgia sent out loads of embassies, but their issue was sealing the deal. So taken together, and re-ordering the ideas a bit, the new NIs would be:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Traditions:
+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us
−10% Shock damage received


St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.


Georgian Embassies
+30% Improve relations


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion


Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost


Excellent Generalship = +1 Army Tradition per year

“Our generals have won fame throughout the region for their quality since the days of the Mkhargrzelis under Queen Tamar. We are fortunate to have such fine military leaders.”


Sadrosho Districts
+20% Manpower recovery speed

Ambition:
−0.05 autonomy reduction

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel like this is slightly too militaristic and could do with a cradle of wine idea for the economy or something else non military at least - perhaps instead of Sadrosho Districts....

EDIT: I realised I left Bagrationi dynasty out for some silly reason - that should probably remain where it is as the first NI.

 

[Delurker]

Some ship names - I used the Greek names for some places in Colchis partly because those provinces and cities might not be owned by the tag in question and also just to sound a bit more interesting - plus, I found a real ship called the Dioscurias anyway. I hope I've written them up properly.

Spoiler: Ship Names

ship_names = {

"David the Builder"

“Tamar”

“Shota Rustaveli”

“Tsotne Dadiani”

“Didgori”

“Vakhtang Gorgasali”

“Saint Nino”

“Amirani”

“Saint George”

“Phasis”

“Giorgi the Brilliant”

“Colchis”

“Argo”

“Golden Fleece”

“Skhalta”

“Ushba”

“Dioscurias”

“Apsaros”

“Pityus”

}

And I've tried to do the monarch details for the Kingdom of Kakheti too:

Spoiler: Kingdom of Kakheti monarch names

Kakheti:

monarch_names = {
“Giorgi #0” = 30
“Alexandre #0” = 20
“Vakhtang #0” = 5
“Davit #0” = 20
“Konstantine #0” = 20
“Luarsab #0” = 10
“Teimuraz #0” = 20
“Levan #0” = 10
“Archil #0” = 10
“Erekle #0” = 20

“Tamar #0” = -30
“Rusudan #0” = -20
“Nestan-Darejan #0” = -15
“Darejan #0” = -10
“Ketevan #0” = -10
“Tinatin #0” = -10
“Nino #0” = -5
“Elene #0” = -5
“Ana #0” = -5
“Mariam #0” = -5
“Khoreshan #0” = -1

}

Note: I just multiplied the male names used in real life by 10 for the amount of times they were used historically. Bagrat was never used – presumably because he was the guy who reduced Georgia to Kakheti, [EDIT: and wasn't really the name of anyone apart from the kings of the other Georgia Kingdoms so I left it out.] Kakheti never had a queen, so I added the historic names used by queens and consorts in the Georgian Kingdoms and gave them relative probability based on popularity. Hopefully the numbers make sense – the queens’ probabilities were chosen relative to other queens, not to monarchs as a whole. EDIT: missed Erekle I, so changed the number after Erekle to #0. FURTHER EDIT: Georgian monarch numbering is sometimes a bit eccentric but I can't see why Archil would be ii rather than i, and Tamar and Rusudan were Queens of the whole of Georgia, not Kakheti, so I suppose they probably would start at i as well.

I put together some surname lists too but I don't quite understand how the programming works, so I'll title them appropriately and hopefully people will be able to let me know how to use them:

Spoiler: Surnames

Imereti noble surnames:

Gelovani (Svaneti)

Dadiani (Odishi)

Gurieli (Guria)

Shervashidze (Abkhazia)

Chkheidze (Racha)

Mikeladze

Mkheidze

Abashidze

Tsereteli

Machutadze (Guria)

Chichua (Odishi)

Chikovani (Lechkhumi and Odishi)

Chijavadze (Imereti)


Kartli noble surnames:

Baratashvili

Mukhrani

Mukhranbatoni

Orbeliani

Mikeladze

Kvenipneveli (Ksani)

Amilakhvari

Gabashvili

Tsitsishvili


Samtskhe surnames:

Shalikashvili

Kopasdze

Avalishvili

Diasamidze

(Panaskerteli)


Kakheti surnames:

Cholokashvili

Shaburidze (Aragvi)

Sidamoni (Aragvi)

Tumanisdze (Aragvi)

Chavchavadze

Andronikashvili

Jorjadze

(Leonidze)

Note: Obviously the Georgia tag would use all of these, but the surnames are very area-dependent - this was a feudal country, so some surnames are tied to a region - I've put some of the regions in question in brackets after the name.

 

[Machabeli]

Off topic: i found this propaganda garbage to be
laughable

http://abkhazworld.com/aw/analysis/1009-kosovo-or-abkhazia-contrasts-and-comparisons

 

[talilu]

Off topic: i found this propaganda garbage to be
laughable

http://abkhazworld.com/aw/analysis/1009-kosovo-or-abkhazia-contrasts-and-comparisons

Although it is propaganda, it isn't particularly wrong at some historical points. It is true that an Abkhazia based kingdom took Kartli back from the Seljuks. It also is true that Abkhazia is noted by the Romans as Abasgoi and Sukhum goes back to 6th century BC according to Wiki. However, other parts about the recent history etc. is wrong, overgloryfying.

However, I think such a post dropped the quality of this nice thread, where I found out about many facts from Caucasus. Let's keep politics out of this.

 

[Machabeli]

Although it is propaganda, it isn't particularly wrong at some historical points. It is true that an Abkhazia based kingdom took Kartli back from the Seljuks. It also is true that Abkhazia is noted by the Romans as Abasgoi and Sukhum goes back to 6th century BC according to Wiki. However, other parts about the recent history etc. is wrong, overgloryfying.

However, I think such a post dropped the quality of this nice thread, where I found out about many facts from Caucasus. Let's keep politics out of this.

Recent history? pretty much everything is over glorified or downright false and the Misinformation really Pisses me off, and it isn't just one page the whole God damn site is full of propaganda and hatred Against Georgians it's hard to Believe that Abkhazians are that delusional.

 

[Reavici]

Apsny claiming kingdom of Abkhazia is like if Slavs were claiming to be ancient Macedonians.

Kingdom of Abkhazia was the first entinity representing Georgian Christian ideology and Georgian state language in Western Georgia.


>Abkhazia based kingdom took Kartli back from the Seljuks.

During Seljuk invasion Abkhazia was already transformed as Georgia. Seljuks occupied Tbilisi which was under Arab rule and archbishop of Kakheti but not Kartli.

Kartli was its own principialty even during Arab invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagrat_III_of_Georgia

I suggest you to read wiki article about Bagrat III

 

[Delurker]

Guys, although this is an interesting discussion I don't think it really belongs on the EU4 Suggestions forum.

 

[Had a dad]

play nice

 

[Machabeli]

Guys, although this is an interesting discussion I don't think it really belongs on the EU4 Suggestions forum.

You're right, my Apologies for going off topic.

 

[ValhallArchitect]

+1 to everything being said here.

Also makes me want to weep when I see how hard Georgia got hit and divided in the forthcoming patch, without even adding the third historical partition kingdom (Kartli/Kakheti/Imerethi)
I would rather support it getting separatist cores and average legitimacy to give it a chance to stand, instead of becoming two 3PMs

 

[Machabeli]

+1 to everything being said here.

Also makes me want to weep when I see how hard Georgia got hit and divided in the forthcoming patch, without even adding the third historical partition kingdom (Kartli/Kakheti/Imerethi)
I would rather support it getting separatist cores and average legitimacy to give it a chance to stand, instead of becoming two 3PMs

Yeah dividing Georgia at the start really makes no sense.

 

[Machabeli]

Also they misspelled Tbilisi as 'Tblisi', and to be honest i don't like how they have made Tbilisi its own province because now Kartli looks out of place and awkward.

 

[Delurker]

@Trin Tragula @DDRJake
I've been busy for a few days, but I know in the last Development Diary you said to suggest changes to the cultural and religious map modes if required. I think @Reavici already mentioned it, but I think Tao and Lomsia provinces should both be Georgian and Orthodox rather than Armenian and Coptic. I understand that ethnic distribution in the Caucasus is a tricky topic (and Georgia and Armenia fought a short war in 1918 over their border so these discussions can have real consequences) but I *think* that would be more accurate. If anyone has any better information, I'd certainly like to hear it. I have no dog in this fight.

I simply can't find anything suggesting a sizeable population of Armenians in Tao, and Tao doesn't have any major towns or cities, which is important as the Armenians tended to live in urban areas as I understand it. The sources I've been reading suggest that many of the Armenians came to Georgia as a whole in the 19th century to escape the Ottoman Empire. There had always been a decent number of Armenians in Georgia before this, but it seems that the 19th century was when they became a majority in some EU4 provinces (for example, they'd been a majority in the cities of Tbilisi and Gori before that I *think*). Javakheti, which is the Eastern part of the province of Lomsia in-game, gained a sizeable Armenian population that was probably the majority in Javakheti (which it still is), but I'm not sure that that would count as a majority of Lomsia province as a whole. I'm struggling quite a lot to find good sources for all this unfortunately - this is alrightish but the key source on population is to a book called "Anti-Georgian hysteria of Armenian pseudo scholars", which doesn't fill me with confidence. As much as anything, I'm drawn to suggest this by the absence of any discussion of Armenians in Samtskhe-Saatabago - for example this, which deals with the interplay between Turks, Mongols and the rulers of Samtskhe, only mentions an Armenian chronicler - it makes no mention of an Armenian community. Likewise, mentions of Armenians in Edge of Empires by Donald Rayfield in the game's time period are relatively few in number (they feature fairly frequently before and afterwards though) and don't include anywhere in Samtskhe-Saatabago.

Although historically it was a little more complicated, in practice Coptic and Armenian go together like Georgian and Orthodox, so Tao and probably Lomsia should be Orthodox if they're Georgian.

As I say I'm quite tentative about all this (although I'm fairly certain about Tao) so more than willing to listen to any counter-arguments.

 

[Trin Tragula]

You will be pleased to know then that Lomsia and Tao have been made Georgian and Orthodox since that screenshot was taken

 

[Machabeli]

You will be pleased to know then that Lomsia and Tao have been made Georgian and Orthodox since that screenshot was taken

Horey shit!(Could you guys divide kartli and kakheti into separate kingdoms too maybe?)

 

[Delurker]

You will be pleased to know then that Lomsia and Tao have been made Georgian and Orthodox since that screenshot was taken

Excellent! Thanks for being so responsive.

 

[Kiyant]

You will be pleased to know then that Lomsia and Tao have been made Georgian and Orthodox since that screenshot was taken

What is with the ideas Delurker wrote?
Since his idea set for Samtskhe is extremely researched and well thought.

 

[Zak Preston]

I would suggest more militarized NIs for Georgia and the whole Caucasus region in general.

Here is the link to my thread.

Spoiler: Georgian NIs suggestion

Ambitions

• +10% Army Morale
• -10% Shock Damage Received

Mountain Keeps
Since antiquity our lands have withstood countless invasions thanks to rough terrain and secure strongholds. Our forts, keeps and castles are literally carved in rocks in strategic places, turning any assault attempt into suicide. Good example is Rabati Castle: In 1393 the city was attacked by the armies of Tamerlane. Despite the Turko-Mongol invasions fortress withstood and continued to thrive.

• +25% Fort Defense

Georgian Wine
The fertile valleys of the South Caucasus house the source of the world's first cultivated grapevines and neolithic wine production, from over 8,000 years ago. Due to the many millennia of wine in Georgian history, and its key economic role, the traditions of its viticulture are entwined and inseparable with the country's national identity.

• +10% Trade Efficiency

Graveyard for conquerors
Strategic significance and natural wealth of our lands made them the target of many invasions, and the country's independence was preserved against multiple enemies by a succession of states. Between the 11th and 15th centuries, the Kingdom of Georgia was a major regional power, which withstood invasions by the Great Seljuk Empire, Mongol Empire, and Timurid Empire, before its fragmentation and submission to the Ottoman and Safavid Empires. Many Georgians fought in the armies of the empires that ruled the country from the 16th century, be it the Safavids, Ottomans or the Russian Empire.

• +5% Discipline

Restoration of Fortresses and Churches
Same as in EU4

• -10% Development Cost
• -10% Build Cost

Sandrosho District
Same as in EU4

• +20% Manpower
• +10% Manpower Recovery Speed

Apostles legacy
According to the official church account, Andrew preached across Georgia, carrying with him an acheiropoieta of the Virgin Mary (an icon believed to be created "not by human hand"), and founded Christian communities believed to be the direct ancestors of the Church. Other apostles claimed by the Church to have preached in Georgia include Simon the Canaanite (better known in the West as Simon the Zealot) said to have been buried near Sokhumi, in the village of Anakopia, and Saint Matthias, said to have preached in the southwest of Georgia, and to have been buried in Gonio, a village not far from Batumi. The Church also claims the presence in Georgia of the Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus, coming north from Armenia.

• +2% Missionary Strength

Fighting on home territory
Taken from Caucasus idea “Hit and Run”

• +1 Land Leader Maneuver

Ambition

• +1 Yearly Army Traditions

The justification for +10% morale and +5% discipline is simple: the nation that was able to defeat multiple overwhelming invasions of world's largest superpowers of that age can't have non-militarized NIs, otherwise it's a direct insult to Timurids, Hordes, Ottomans, Persia and Russia

 

[Delurker]

Just been looking through the game files and there's some inconsistent transliteration practices going on there that would be nice to address.
First off, it'd be a good idea to remove the name "Thamar" from the files, since it's just "Tamar" transliterated differently (there's no difference at all in Georgian). "Tamar" should have a corresponding increase in probability. Also "Tamari" is I believe also the same name - Georgian doesn't usually allow words to end in a consonant which is why there's a transliterated variant with a vowel at the end. Also "Kaihosro" in the files should be "Kaikhosro" as the sound is a [x], not a [h], and Keykhosrau should be eliminated since it's again the same name but transliterated differently. "Xareba" should be "Khareba". Also quite a lot of names are duplicated in the Cultures file for no obvious reason e.g. there are three instances of "Simon". "Iesse" should be "Iese". "Konstantine" and "Constantine" should be merged into "Konstantine". "Vakhtank" should just be deleted - "Vakhtang" is the only spelling I've ever seen. "Sumbat" and "Smbat" are Armenian names - arguably they could stay as a recognition of the Armenian presence in Georgia, but I thought it was worth pointing out that I strongly doubt any ethnic Georgians (which includes the entire aristocracy) would have been called Smbat (and if they were their surnames wouldn't have been Georgian most likely.) Likewise "Ashot". "Koba" as a first name is a bit of an Easter egg at best - it's a shortening of Iakob and again I have no records of it being used as a proper first name in this period. Likewise Zhordania as a surname wasn't a noble surname as far as I can tell (I suppose it could stay so that it might come up in the event of a republic...)

In the monarch names as well as the culture names, "Zviadi" should be "Zviad". "Alexander" should be "Alexandre" since the other names are rendered in the Georgian fashion. By the way, another male name I think I forgot to mention last time is "Zaal". "Anna" should be "Ana".

In the ship names, "Ereti" should be "Hereti", and "Anacopia" should be "Anakopia". "Batomi" should be "Batumi".

I'll return to this later.

 

[Reavici]

Sumbat is pretty common name in medieval Georgia, names doesn't implies nationality anyways... Greek, Armenian, Jewish and Persian names were very common among Georgian nobility.

Tamar sounds like Thamar(i) in Georgian

Kaikhosro and Vakhtang is persian name for example, and they were commonly used as well

Ashot and Sumbat both were used by Tao-Klarjeti princes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbat_Davitis_Dze
"11th-century Georgian chronicler who described in his The Life and Tale of the Bagratids the history of the Bagrationi dynasty of Georgia from the beginnings until c. 1030. '

Batumi was known as Batomi untill XX century