Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Something you should be aware of if going through the name databases is that the first names in the culture file are not actually used apart from for custom countries.
In normal play the first names will be taken from the country files instead.
Advisors take their name from a country list for the countries that have cores on their home province for instance.
The listed names with the odds "0" in the country file are never going to be used for rulers, and those with a negative number are treated as female names.

The "leader names" in the country file are last names used for advisors, merchants, diplomats and generals.

The dynasty names in the culture file are only used for pretenders and rulers with new random dynasties (again unless you play custom countries, if so then the dynasty lists are used for last names instead).


In general we don't spend much time on the custom country exclusive lists (they are pretty horrible in some places even for English culture and in Scandinavia) so I am much more interested in feedback on the (quite old) name lists in the country files.

 

[Delurker]

Sumbat is pretty common name in medieval Georgia, names doesn't implies nationality anyways... Greek, Armenian, Jewish and Persian names were very common among Georgian nobility.

Tamar sounds like Thamar(i) in Georgian

Kaikhosro and Vakhtang is persian name for example, and they were commonly used as well

Ashot and Sumbat both were used by Tao-Klarjeti princes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbat_Davitis_Dze
"11th-century Georgian chronicler who described in his The Life and Tale of the Bagratids the history of the Bagrationi dynasty of Georgia from the beginnings until c. 1030. '

Batumi was known as Batomi untill XX century

Fair enough on Sumbat - I didn't think the name lasted to the game's time period in Georgia though? No big deal either way. I know that the Georgians were big name-borrowers - I think they wound up using what feels like every name in the Shahnameh at some point!

Also fair point on Batumi - serves me right for writing the last post in a hurry!

As for Tamar, my understanding is that the "t" is aspirated, so it actually sounds exactly how an initial "t" sounds in English. Putting an "h" in the transliteration is just going to confuse people into thinking it was pronounced with a "th" like in "thing" (or at least it'd definitely confuse me if I didn't know better.) Either way I reckon there should only be one version of the name in the game, whichever one is chosen.

 

[Delurker]

Something you should be aware of if going through the name databases is that the first names in the culture file are not actually used apart from for custom countries.
In normal play the first names will be taken from the country files instead.
Advisors take their name from a country list for the countries that have cores on their home province for instance.
The listed names with the odds "0" in the country file are never going to be used for rulers, and those with a negative number are treated as female names.

The "leader names" in the country file are last names used for advisors, merchants, diplomats and generals.

The dynasty names in the culture file are only used for pretenders and rulers with new random dynasties (again unless you play custom countries, if so then the dynasty lists are used for last names instead).


In general we don't spend much time on the custom country exclusive lists (they are pretty horrible in some places even for English culture and in Scandinavia) so I am much more interested in feedback on the (quite old) name lists in the country files.

Thanks @Trin Tragula , that clarifies it a lot! I'll get something together to propose shortly.

 

[Delurker]

Hi again,

So I went through the name files for Georgia and Imereti and redid them, as well as writing ones for Samtskhe, Kartli and Kakheti. I've attached them to this post. I should say that I deleted a lot of the previous names. In terms of the first names I could find no record for some of them, and some I could only find modern people with that name. As for the leader names, whoever chose them was clearly reading a history of the Georgian Democratic Republic since virtually all the surnames were of famous people from that time period, not 1444-1821. I got rid of most of those since that's well after the end of the game and Georgia was feudal during the game period so surnames held by commoners are a bit out of place (plus those names may not even have existed during the game's time frame.) I made sure that each leader name was tied to the particular tag it was from historically, so hopefully there won't be any surnames from Kakheti turning up in Samtskhe or whatever. The Georgia tag gets all of them though.
I also redid the ship names. I only used certain names for certain regions - Imereti clearly wouldn't have had a ship called Tbilisi, for example. Once again, the Georgia tag gets all of them. I wrote some of them in transliterated Georgian so the Georgians on this thread will have to point out if I messed any of them up.

EDIT: Damn, I forgot to change "Alexandre" to "Aleksandre".
FURTHER EDIT: I added #1 to Liparit and Vamiq because there had already been one each of Liparit and Vamiq Dadiani before the game started. I suppose in hindsight that doesn't mean that they should have #1 though because the leader name may be different in-game. Whoops.
EDIT NUMBER 3: Fixed a few small errors.
YET ANOTHER EDIT: Added Gori and Gremi to ship names, and fixed more duplicates and typos.

 

[Delurker]

By the way, can I just confirm that the list of historical idea groups no longer does anything? Because if they still have an effect I'd like to change them a bit (in particular it seems a bit of a no-brainer to me that one of the ones Georgia should choose should be aristocratic.)

 

[Trin Tragula]

Afaik it matters for the ideas you get preselected in later start dates.

 

[JonSnow]

Delurker, well done! I went through the name files and they seem pretty accurate.

Even though I don't completely agree with the way Georgian tags are starting in the new version of the game (due to not being historically accurate), I am still curious to see how things will play out with the new setup.

 

[Delurker]

Delurker, well done! I went through the name files and they seem pretty accurate.

Even though I don't completely agree with the way Georgian tags are starting in the new version of the game (due to not being historically accurate), I am still curious to see how things will play out with the new setup.

Thanks! Yeah, historically it's a bit off - my proposal was for Imereti to be a vassal of Georgia, but just having Georgia and Samtskhe would be at least as accurate historically. Still, I agree - I'm looking forward to this! Just hope that there is a Kakheti tag (reading the announcement again I suspect there might be one as a revolter tag. Fingers crossed.)

I have some questions about the names still.
1) Is there a way to exclude a monarch name from being used as a leader name? As far as I know, Bagrat was only used by the Bagrationi dynasty, so it'd be nice to stop other leaders etc. from having that name.
2) Is there any way at all to unite the numbering of Kartli and Georgia? Kartli's rulers followed the existing Georgian regnal numbers, unlike the other three tags. So if Kartli formed in the game after Georgia disappeared, their numbering would probably be out, at a minimum for Vakhtang since he's the first ruler as I understand it - i.e. you'd get a Vakhtang IV of Georgia and later a Vakhtang IV of Kartli.
3) Not a technical point but a point of discussion - I forgot to add Jaqeli to the Georgia leader names. Is that worth adding or would that seem a bit weird? I know historically they weren't involved in the other kingdoms but if Georgia had reunited they might have been I suppose?

Also I just noticed I put Vakhtang in both the monarch names and the leader names of Georgia so the leader name needs to be eliminated.

 

[Kiyant]

Couldnt there be an event for Samtskhe where they would convert to Islam and be a vassal for the Ottomans?
Because the Atabegs of Samtskhe ruled over the region even after the Ottoman conquest and converted to Islam to hold on to the power.

 

[JonSnow]

3) Not a technical point but a point of discussion - I forgot to add Jaqeli to the Georgia leader names. Is that worth adding or would that seem a bit weird? I know historically they weren't involved in the other kingdoms but if Georgia had reunited they might have been I suppose?

Also I just noticed I put Vakhtang in both the monarch names and the leader names of Georgia so the leader name needs to be eliminated.

hm, interesting. Just to give a little info. Yes, in united Georgia (before 1444) Jaqeli's always played important roles. Meskhs played very important role when it come to the military. Traditionally they were always the first ones to engage the enemy during the battles. (maybe this in EU4 could be translated in some kind of military modifier for Samtskhe Tag)

 

[Delurker]

Couldnt there be an event for Samtskhe where they would convert to Islam and be a vassal for the Ottomans?
Because the Atabegs of Samtskhe ruled over the region even after the Ottoman conquest and converted to Islam to hold on to the power.

I see what you're getting at, and you're right historically, but does it need a DHE? My understanding is that the Jaqelis converted to Islam because they could see that they were going to lose to the Ottomans and that meant that when the Ottomans took over Samtskhe they got to continue to be the local lords. I don't think they would count as a vassal - Samtskhe was a normal Ottoman province, the Jaqelis just remained the main notables. And there's no provision in the game for named provincial lords or whatever so I don't think you can represent that.

 

[Delurker]

hm, interesting. Just to give a little info. Yes, in united Georgia (before 1444) Jaqeli's always played important roles. Meskhs played very important role when it come to the military. Traditionally they were always the first ones to engage the enemy during the battles. (maybe this in EU4 could be translated in some kind of military modifier for Samtskhe Tag)

Yeah okay - I suppose I'm just slightly wary because apparently Georgia will be a tag at the start of the game and Jaqelis weren't involved in Georgia in 1444 as I understand it, since they wanted nothing to do with it - they wanted their own lands. Not necessarily opposed to a military modifier for Samtskhe but 1) I don't think their military performance from 1444 onwards really merits it and 2) presumably it'd have to come at the expense of one of the NIs I proposed - more than happy to debate that, but which one would you get rid of?

 

[Delurker]

I've edited the names post. I should say I've got a bad habit of editing my posts without adding a new post saying I've done so, so sorry about that.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Delurker, well done! I went through the name files and they seem pretty accurate.

Even though I don't completely agree with the way Georgian tags are starting in the new version of the game (due to not being historically accurate), I am still curious to see how things will play out with the new setup.

Well it's historically correct that Demetrius was a co-king of Immereti and the Atabegs were in constant rebellion against the georgian crown, representing a united, stable Georgia would be less correct. But the most accurate way would be to treat Georgia like they did the Timurids. Have Kakheti, Immereti and Samtshke as vassals and give the georgian king a reduced liberty desire in subjects modifier.

 

[JonSnow]

Well it's historically correct that Demetrius was a co-king of Immereti and the Atabegs were in constant rebellion against the georgian crown, representing a united, stable Georgia would be less correct. But the most accurate way would be to treat Georgia like they did the Timurids. Have Kakheti, Immereti and Samtshke as vassals and give the georgian king a reduced liberty desire in subjects modifier.

Could you provide some source for Demetrius being "co-king" of Imereti? Cause I don't recall that fact. I mean, I had pretty good grades in history but i studied these stuff 10 years ago . I just checked wiki, and it talks about Demetrius first being captured by Dadians and delivered to the Georgian king. And then become just "eristavi=duke" and not king of Imereti, after Alexander I married Demetrius's sister.

Not sure if should I trust the wiki, but source that is stated for the article (if translated well) is as good as it can get about Georgian history.

P.S. I completely agree with the "Have Kakheti, Immereti and Samtshke as vassals". I think this would be the way to go.

 

[AirikrStrife]

After Alexander I's renouncement of the throne in 1442 in favor of Vakhtang IV, Demetrius remained a co-king with the latter, whereas Alexander's third son, George VIII, was made a co-king appanaged in Kakheti. Upon the death of Vakhtang IV in 1446, Demetrius III was to become de jure king-regnant of Georgia, but the throne was seized by George VIII, inaugurating a series of conflicts which would eventually lead to the dissolution of the kingdom of Georgia by the close of the 15th century.

From wiki and backed up by my book on caucasus history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius,_son_of_Alexander_I_of_Georgia
the duke of imereti you refer to is another person.

 

[JonSnow]

From wiki and backed up by my book on caucasus history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius,_son_of_Alexander_I_of_Georgia
the duke of imereti you refer to is another person.

I see, indeed you are right. I was talking about wrong Dimitri. "your book" meaning you are the author?! Anyway, apologies in advance for my mistakes, I am just a guy not a scholar as you

I just went through some Georgian website (not sure if you can read Georgian). And in sources there are some conflicting info, in some Dimitri indeed refered as a "king" in some he is refered just as a "brother of the king".

P.S. I just looked into your post about Caucasus/Georgian in another thread. Well done!

 

[AirikrStrife]

I see, indeed you are right. I was talking about wrong Dimitri. "your book" meaning you are the author?! Anyway, apologies in advance for my mistakes, I am just a guy not a scholar as you

I just went through some Georgian website (not sure if you can read Georgian). And in sources there are some conflicting info, in some Dimitri indeed refered as a "king" in some he is refered just as a "brother of the king".

P.S. I just looked into your post about Caucasus/Georgian in another thread. Well done!

Ah, not my book, a book I own, written by James Forsyth. "The Caucasus a History".

Sources form this period are a bit vague. Sometimes it's just about definitions, eventually based on perspectives and also historical bias. I'm however no expert on the issue so I can't make much debatte about it except quote my book, some wikipedia sources or similiar.

But I feel confident in the thesis I driven (afaik I'm the original person to propose splitting Georgia) is the better way to represent Georgia - balkanized though the new PDX set up is not perfectly representing that. Doing the same solution as was done with the Timurids would be thebest option for historical realism. The only issue I see with it is that it might make it too hard to play as Georgia itself as it most times will fall victim to it's overpowering vassals.

Unfortunatly EUIV is a bad game at representing the kind of drawn out civil wars, dynastic wars and other more or less internal wars that happened in history. Looking at for example the Kalmar union which is usually ended in one single war, while in history the inclusion of sweden in the kalmar union moved back and forth leaving the union in 1448 being restored 1457-1464, 1497-1501 and 1520-1521 with numuerous other attemps to restore the union aswell. These kind of scenarios are hard to emmulate with EUIV

 

[Trin Tragula]

Went through and added your name lists @Delurker . Expect to see them in patch 1.23.

Thank you for taking the time to make them for us

 

[Delurker]

Went through and added your name lists @Delurker . Expect to see them in patch 1.23.

Thank you for taking the time to make them for us

My pleasure! Sorry about the typos!