German minors

[Incompetent]

As you may have noticed, Aberration suffers from the same problem as most versions of EU2, which is that Germany and the Low Countries are locked in a permanent state of war for the first few decades of the game, with force-annexations coming one after another until only a few countries are left. Often wars become very protracted as the beligerents can reach some, but not all of each others' provinces. For reference, here's the initial set-up at present:

So, any suggestions? In general terms I would say we need to a) reduce the number of 1-prov countries drastically, b) dole out military access if we want the AI to behave sensibly.

 

[MattyG]

As you may have noticed, Aberration suffers from the same problem as most versions of EU2, which is that Germany and the Low Countries are locked in a permanent state of war for the first few decades of the game, with force-annexations coming one after another until only a few countries are left. Often wars become very protracted as the beligerents can reach some, but not all of each others' provinces. For reference, here's the initial set-up at present:

So, any suggestions? In general terms I would say we need to a) reduce the number of 1-prov countries drastically, b) dole out military access if we want the AI to behave sensibly.

I propose that the number and size of minors remain unchanged.

The key would be to working the alliances, RMs and MilAccess to convince the ais to not go nuts from the game opening.

The other key lies - as ever - in the ai files.

We need to heavily edit those things such that most of the Germans minors have new ais to cover them for the first, say 40 years. In these ais their War setting would be essentially zero and they would have no historical foes to attack.

Then, when the 1480s come around, they could all have new ai's trigger which upped the ante ever so slightly.

Then once Protestantism happens, the War and Enemy ratings get cranked up again.

Obviously, there need to be variations based on specific countries and certain major in game events, but otherwise, this will encourage a long period of initial peace (relative to the current situation).

 

[Trin Tragula]

You need to weaken Bavaria as well... I've never had a game where AI bavaria doesn't annex all of central europe (usually along with some other region, sometimes france, sometimes almost all of russia, sometimes italy and parts of the balkans...)

(I usually play the countries not directly involved in Europe such as Byzantium, Granada and Ireland)

 

[unmerged(33565)]

You need to weaken Bavaria as well... I've never had a game where AI bavaria doesn't annex all of central europe (usually along with some other region, sometimes france, sometimes almost all of russia, sometimes italy and parts of the balkans...)

(I usually play the countries not directly involved in Europe such as Byzantium, Granada and Ireland)

Really I think that all you need to do for Bavaria is remove dutch culture, make them earn it later, and remove the cores of the dutch provances that it does not own. This would really cut into their income, with 30% cut into 4 of their richest provances.

Their has been alot of talk about ai files, I went and dug up an old tread from when Lawkeeper tried to revive the project. Here are some of the ideas hee came up with:

Now, just a few things I've tried of late, results of some tests :
- there're great benefits to cut down all aggressivities in the AI files. When I say 'down', I mean one-third to one-fourth of what they're currently are. It won't change much things in MP, but this'll avoid endless wars in SP, ending in constant struggles between the same countries over and over, and permit a better survivability of the minors
- 'empty' (and undiscovered, by anyone) provinces in the arabic peninsula, isolating Aden and Oman from the Hedjaz and the Caliphate, work great to prevent Caliphate from expanding too quickly there. A strong navy for Oman is necessary, but an undiscovered sea-zone would be good too. It is somewhat deterministic, but combined with levantine culture and bigger manpower for Byzantium, it worked great to prevent blitzkrieg of the Caliphate
- explorers and conquistadors for non-europeans (meaning asians) shouldn't appear before 1600-1650, at the very least : I introduced some in a game around 1550-1600 (with the vanilla setup), and the result was that the asians were colonizing faster, not only in indonesia but also in america (and the AI colonizing Australia is quite a shock )

As you can see, the minors can survive with good ai files. There is even some help with the Caliphate beast in the east. I think that if with new ai files and a couple of changes to the beginning alliances would solve most of the problems.

 

[MattyG]

Interesting. I didn't realise someone already tried to redevelop Aberrated.

Yes, it's all in the ai files for the minors, although establishing a strong network of good relations, marriages etc, will also help keep things quiet for the first 10 years as well. I have really grown tired on starting in 1419 and have everyone go to war within two days.

As far as Bavaria goes, I think it most comentators agree that it needs to earn dutch culture later, if at all. I actually think it would be interesting that it also loses it again, once the Dutch Revolter type events kick in, as the dutch are hardly going to gladly accept Bavarian sovreignty if they can be independent instead.

Nice touch on the Caliphate as well. It definitely needs to be slowed down. Perhaps there are also other ways. Countries like Aden and Oman could also have 'bullet' events, wherein a DoW from the Caliphate triggers and event that wakes a strong general and a rousing of home support in the form of stability increases and free troops.

 

[Incompetent]

I'm not convinced that aggression 0 is enough to stop minors getting squished, unless we also insist that players play on Coward. We might need a fair amount of playtesting to get that aspect of things right.

As for culture, there are all sorts of ways we could divide up culture in Germany and the Low Countries, from creating a unified German-Dutch culture, to dividing along religious lines, to dividing into 'tribes' like the Swabians and the Franconians.

But there's one aspect of the current set-up I'd like to keep: we don't want an event chain leading to the Dutch fighting against whichever non-Dutch major happens to control them and getting their independence as a single country, as that would be duplication of a historical power, both in geographical extent and in origins.

As for the 'stay Catholic -> lose Dutch' idea, it makes sense in vanilla, but it's a bit daft in the current Abe setup if you look at the facts on the ground: out of 7 dutch provinces, 3 are Reformed and 4 are Catholic.

Since this is Aberration, I think we should draw attention away from the Dutch rather than towards them, and instead look at other cultural divides in the HRE. The current division of Dutch and then 'German' (a term which in 1419 covered almost the whole HRE, including the Low Countries) to cover everything else just doesn't fit the political situation. If anything I think it should be easier for the Bavarians to rule Antwerp than Hannover, and likewise easier for the Hansa to rule Amsterdam than Zurich, whichever religion they choose.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Why does Bravia have cores on all dutch provances. I can see the ones they own and Flanders and brebart, but not in the northern provances. Also, I really don't like the brandenberg provance under their control, just gives them the ablitly to strike out more.

Also I looked and not a single german minor in northern germany is in an alliance at the beginning, I think that putting some into an allaince in the beginning would help. Also there is not a single RM up there either.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

This might not be part of the german minors discussion, but why are the Swiss not part of Aberation? If it's due to the Swabians taking them over, I'd argue that their culture must still exist, parhaps acting as a revolt issue or event for Swabia, if they grow larger than - say - 10 provinces.

I'd also agree that starting some of the minor in alliances would help prevent Bavaria from picking them off at will, and fighting each other constantly. But either this is an ai file issue, or a case of starting them all off as 2-3 province statelets, and losing some of the magic of the thorny german problem.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

This might not be part of the german minors discussion, but why are the Swiss not part of Aberation? If it's due to the Swabians taking them over, I'd argue that their culture must still exist, parhaps acting as a revolt issue or event for Swabia, if they grow larger than - say - 10 provinces.

I'd also agree that starting some of the minor in alliances would help prevent Bavaria from picking them off at will, and fighting each other constantly. But either this is an ai file issue, or a case of starting them all off as 2-3 province statelets, and losing some of the magic of the thorny german problem.

The story behind (game wise) swabia was that the habergs did not go to austra and so thats why they are still german. Now I don't pretend to know swiss history (damn american history classes, most of what I know about europe is self taught) so I don't know how this would play out.

 

[yourworstnightm]

What abou having a stronger Friesland, to compete with Bavaria in lowlands. Have Friesland start with Friesland, Holland and Geldre, and if it survives it will convert to reformed. Also have Bavaria start with dutch culture, but make it loose the culture if they stay catholic during the reformation.
Also splitting the german culture in north and south german might be a good idea.

 

[Incompetent]

For further reference, here is the current religious divide in the German and Dutch provinces. Notice that it's quite significantly different from vanilla:

Before we decide which monarch backs which faith, we need to be clear on the province religions we want in the absence of political interference. The choices are, approximately:

1. The current setup (more or less)

2. Something close to vanilla

3. A completely different setup

So, what will it be? I actually rather like ArchDuke's layout, but it does mean we'll have to stop thinking in terms of vanilla: for one thing, the Dutch are divided in their loyalties and many of them would prefer Catholic to Calvinist rule. For another, Luther and co are actually quite popular in the South (unlike vanilla, but probably closer to real life - Germany's current religious divide only became clear-cut during the Thirty Years' War) and it will require active effort on the part of Bavaria if it wants to enforce Catholicism there.

 

[MattyG]

Let's keep the current set up, it is as good as anything.

I am still keen on a Dutch state being possible, but later than it existed in vanilla. The mid to late 1700s, when cultural concerns (nationalism) become more significant and the religious concerns have begun to fade.

I still don't think we need to layer a north-south German cultural divide over a north-south religious divide. It will be very deterministic and only brave players and stupid ai will want to grab provinces on both sides of the divide (unless we start throwing state cultures around again).

I'd rather see several blobs of culture appear, all of which cross religious divides a little.

Alternatively, we accept this notion of north-south German culture, but we reassess the religious split to be east-west based. The Protestants would be in the west, bordering and supporting the protestants of Bohemia. The east would be Catholic. A few provinces would go Reformed, of course.

Matty

 

[Incompetent]

Let's keep the current set up, it is as good as anything.

I am still keen on a Dutch state being possible, but later than it existed in vanilla. The mid to late 1700s, when cultural concerns (nationalism) become more significant and the religious concerns have begun to fade.

OK, that sounds like a good plan. I would remark though that Dutch nationalism would depend on what Burgundy and the Hansa do, as they each have the opportunity to assimilate a portion of the Low Countries completely. Province-by-province events might be best.

Alternatively, we accept this notion of north-south German culture, but we reassess the religious split to be east-west based. The Protestants would be in the west, bordering and supporting the protestants of Bohemia. The east would be Catholic. A few provinces would go Reformed, of course.

Matty

Bohemia is in the east... also there is something of an East-West split already in that the Rhineland is almost entirely Catholic, while there are a lot of Protestants in Austria and east of Bavaria.

What we could do is keep most of the current setup and have a north-south culture divide between 'Hochdeutsche' and 'Niederdeutsche', but add a bit of 'noise' to the religious picture: both north and south will have a mixture of all three faiths, but with Catholic having a slight advantage in the south (enough to keep AI Bavaria Catholic most of the time), and Protestant and Reformed having an advantage in the north. Religion should be a real headache for all the majors, whichever faith they adopt.

More cultures are of course possible, but I don't want to go crazy as THAT could get deterministic - our doling out of cultures would effectively say: "You may now rule the Franconians, the Bavarians and the Saxons effectively, but not the Swabians, the Prussians or the Hessians." :wacko: Besides, we have perhaps 20 new cultures total to play with, and we should probably leave at least some for the rest of the world.

Here's a linguistic map of Germany (at the bottom of the page). I know that's not the be-all and end-all of culture, but it's one possibility.

 

[MattyG]

OK, that sounds like a good plan. I would remark though that Dutch nationalism would depend on what Burgundy and the Hansa do, as they each have the opportunity to assimilate a portion of the Low Countries completely. Province-by-province events might be best.



Bohemia is in the east... also there is something of an East-West split already in that the Rhineland is almost entirely Catholic, while there are a lot of Protestants in Austria and east of Bavaria.

What we could do is keep most of the current setup and have a north-south culture divide between 'Hochdeutsche' and 'Niederdeutsche', but add a bit of 'noise' to the religious picture: both north and south will have a mixture of all three faiths, but with Catholic having a slight advantage in the south (enough to keep AI Bavaria Catholic most of the time), and Protestant and Reformed having an advantage in the north. Religion should be a real headache for all the majors, whichever faith they adopt.

More cultures are of course possible, but I don't want to go crazy as THAT could get deterministic - our doling out of cultures would effectively say: "You may now rule the Franconians, the Bavarians and the Saxons effectively, but not the Swabians, the Prussians or the Hessians." :wacko: Besides, we have perhaps 20 new cultures total to play with, and we should probably leave at least some for the rest of the world.

OK, major OOOPS there. I got my east and west totally mixed around. I was playing with my son while typing (he was having serious morning wrigglies). I meant Catholic in the west and Protestant in the east, next to Bohemia.

Agreed on the cultures point and they are much more necessary for the RotW, especially Asia. I think we are already adding Occitan, Provencal, Suomi and now a second German culture.

 

[Incompetent]

Agreed on the cultures point and they are much more necessary for the RotW, especially Asia. I think we are already adding Occitan, Provencal, Suomi and now a second German culture.

We're not adding Suomi, we're just renaming Ugric. And I would dispute the relevance to gameplay of Provencal culture. But yes, we're certainly going to have to prioritise somewhat.

 

[MattyG]

Incompetant,

I went to that language site and it was more about German now than about the past. I did some more research and I remain unconvinved that the linguistic differences in Germany are any different in scope from those in Spain or Italy at the time. With the exception of Low Saxon (Holstein province, maybe Oldenburg) I just don't think the three rough dialects deserve different cultures in EU2.

Of course, there's still the caveat that we can re-write the history the way we want it, but I would want to read a really convincing storyline that justifies strong cultural differences between the north and the south such that a southern province would feel a northern lord would be as foreign as an Arab/Berber/Iberian/Italian.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I don't think it's neccesarily a language difference. And I am not saying it's across north/south lines. But if you are dividing french culture (because it's too powerful?), then you leave german culture as the single most populous on the board, and therefore potentially very powerful.

The closer german culture gets to the north western coast, and holland, the more broadminded it gets.

I also feel that a swiss culture has little to do with the abcense of the Hapburgs, and more to do with geographic isolation. Prussia - the classic "germanic" culture today, has baltic culture in the game. Same german language, same cultural difference in game terms as Iberian and Cherokee.

Perhaps one could bring back swiss culture (say 2-3 provinces), add a northern german culture (another 2-3 provinces?) called hanseatic made up of Holstein, Mecklenberg, and Bremen.

This reduces the power of german culture a little, and might make it more difficult for Bavaria to hang onto a arger germanic empire. It may not solve the constant-war issue for the small german provinces though.

Or am I missing something in the thread here?

 

[MattyG]

I don't think it's neccesarily a language difference. And I am not saying it's across north/south lines. But if you are dividing french culture (because it's too powerful?), then you leave german culture as the single most populous on the board, and therefore potentially very powerful.

The closer german culture gets to the north western coast, and holland, the more broadminded it gets.

I also feel that a swiss culture has little to do with the abcense of the Hapburgs, and more to do with geographic isolation. Prussia - the classic "germanic" culture today, has baltic culture in the game. Same german language, same cultural difference in game terms as Iberian and Cherokee.

Perhaps one could bring back swiss culture (say 2-3 provinces), add a northern german culture (another 2-3 provinces?) called hanseatic made up of Holstein, Mecklenberg, and Bremen.

This reduces the power of german culture a little, and might make it more difficult for Bavaria to hang onto a arger germanic empire. It may not solve the constant-war issue for the small german provinces though.

Or am I missing something in the thread here?

One very important point is that we don't work backwards from the present. NOW the Germans are more broadminded in the North, but were they in 1419? And does this make for a different culture? North-south differences in Italy make no difference, and the completely different language of Catalunyan makes no culture difference in Iberia. Clearly there are significant enough similarities that the peoples in those regions felt they could live with governance from others in those regions.

Which is why I still think that German culture can't be so easily divided as the Occitan can be from French.

However, if a good alternate history is provided, like the emergeance of a distinct culture in the Hansa provinces, as mikl suggests ....

 

[Incompetent]

Perhaps one could bring back swiss culture (say 2-3 provinces), add a northern german culture (another 2-3 provinces?) called hanseatic made up of Holstein, Mecklenberg, and Bremen.

Hanseatic actually makes a lot of sense, probably more so than my north german/south german idea. At the start of the game, the Hansa aren't really a nation at all, just a scattered collection of merchants who've agreed to organise their trading efforts collectively - more like members of a society than citizens of a country. The answer to 'who should the Hansa be able to rule easily?' is whoever wants to be part of the Hansa, regardless of their cultural background. Even the city of Novgorod might come in time to be fiercely loyal to the League.

We could make them a spreading culture power, as I've proposed for Burgundy. This will gradually reduce the area of the HRE that Bavaria can claim authority over, as the HRE as an entity gets weaker. I like it!

 

[MattyG]

mikl,

It looks like you are on to a strong idea here. I suggest that - once things formally come together for the team - that you make the revision of the Hansa and the associated provinces as being your 'baby'. I know you have played them before and have a feel for the flow and problems. Not that the Hansa reuire a lot of revision, its one of the better event files in the game. But you can work out how to include the culture changes you suggest and to develop both events related to this, the spread of their culture and so forth.

One challenge: never ever give them German culture. It's what we are trying to work towards and it would defeat part of the purpose of all of this.