Germany always seemed to me in Europa Universalis in part too chaotic and in part too unified to be interesting. I mean, we got so many german states with german culture. How to be surprised that the big Austria eat through it and prosper so much? Reading about the history of the catholic church, I was surprised to read that the conflict between the German Emperors and the Pope had been a major reason of that chaos. It was before the timeframe of EUII, but one of the big consequences of that conflict was the strength of the Catholic Church in Germany. And not so much strength in spiritual power as in temporal power. Let me quote one of the easiest sources of the net in matter of history http://www.friesian.com/philhist.htm:
It goes better. The church lands of germany were under the authority of what been called Prince-Bishops, meaning powerful and independant Bishops or Archbishops. They were elected, and most of the time it was some landless aristocrat from some neighbouring family that was elected. It does not mean that such Prince-Bishops were free from the rule of the Holy See, and neither it means that they were under the thumb of their neighbour. Quite the contrary. Almost all the catholic church hierarchy, italian or not, were coming from the aristocracy. All the bishops and archbishops had some autonomy. All had conflicting sympathies with their neighbours. All had in the end to bow before the holy see. It was part of the job. The exceptions had to do with a powerful central power, as the King of France, who was able to contest the power of the pope and had much authority on the hierarchy of the church in his state. And it was not the case in Germany.
The strength of the temporal power of the Church in Germany was one of the direct cause of the Reformation. The German Princes, as their Emperor, did not like that 25% of Germany was under control of a Church with a Italian leader. In fact, many in the german church hierarchy did not like either. They were the ones to convert. Of course, I don't deny there were spiritual reasons too. I would rather think that the spiritual reasons helped people in germany to keep the catholic faith, and not the other way around.
Anyway, that's not what I want to discuss here.
We could always think that the Prince-Bishops power was not the Pope power. However, in 1763 unformally and in 1786 formally, these Prince-Bishops had to protest against the papal interference in the exercise of episcopal powers. It was not that the papal interference had grown, but that the nationalist ideas had gained quite some ground in Germany. Personally, I think that the power of the Pope in the timeframe of EUII was only limitated by the distances: culturals, geographics, and politicals distances.
So that's why I think the provinces of Mainz (343), Salzburg (350) and Köln (344) at least should be part of the Papal States, with cores, and their corresponding states forgotten. To simulate the weakness of the Papal States in Italy in 1419, I would be a supporter of the italian setting of Mad King James in his Setup Discussion thread. That's mean one province less as core (391), and a vassal state as neighbour (392), keeping the core on this province.
Gamewise:
1- The Papal States should not be overpowerful in this setting because it would lack any land connections between their provinces and most of them would not have the italian culture.
2- The diplomatic scene in germany would be now of the utmost importance for the Papal States. The Reformation would became much more dramatic. The defense and the attack from such divised state would be very interesting.
3- The events from these germans minors should be integrated in the events of the papal states. Some changes would be needed, of course. I think in particular at some events written by Twoflower.
Well, that's it. What do you think?
The Church in Germany guaranteed his power by playing the power gamers against each other. Same thing as in Italy. And as in Italy, it worked. The ecclesiastic states who did not turn protestant lasted until 1803. In the actual setting of EUIII, they are the first states to be annexed, one way or another. Not so historical. But were they really states, or were they pretty big church lands? I read on that subject, and I was surprised that the Church Hierarchy had more power in these lands that in the most part of the Papal States before the end of the XVth century. IIRC, Caesare Borgia had to go to the conquest of much of the Papal States, who were not really under the authority of the Pope, and neither under the authority of local bishops, but of local aristocrats.
It goes better. The church lands of germany were under the authority of what been called Prince-Bishops, meaning powerful and independant Bishops or Archbishops. They were elected, and most of the time it was some landless aristocrat from some neighbouring family that was elected. It does not mean that such Prince-Bishops were free from the rule of the Holy See, and neither it means that they were under the thumb of their neighbour. Quite the contrary. Almost all the catholic church hierarchy, italian or not, were coming from the aristocracy. All the bishops and archbishops had some autonomy. All had conflicting sympathies with their neighbours. All had in the end to bow before the holy see. It was part of the job. The exceptions had to do with a powerful central power, as the King of France, who was able to contest the power of the pope and had much authority on the hierarchy of the church in his state. And it was not the case in Germany.
The strength of the temporal power of the Church in Germany was one of the direct cause of the Reformation. The German Princes, as their Emperor, did not like that 25% of Germany was under control of a Church with a Italian leader. In fact, many in the german church hierarchy did not like either. They were the ones to convert. Of course, I don't deny there were spiritual reasons too. I would rather think that the spiritual reasons helped people in germany to keep the catholic faith, and not the other way around.
Anyway, that's not what I want to discuss here.We could always think that the Prince-Bishops power was not the Pope power. However, in 1763 unformally and in 1786 formally, these Prince-Bishops had to protest against the papal interference in the exercise of episcopal powers. It was not that the papal interference had grown, but that the nationalist ideas had gained quite some ground in Germany. Personally, I think that the power of the Pope in the timeframe of EUII was only limitated by the distances: culturals, geographics, and politicals distances.
So that's why I think the provinces of Mainz (343), Salzburg (350) and Köln (344) at least should be part of the Papal States, with cores, and their corresponding states forgotten. To simulate the weakness of the Papal States in Italy in 1419, I would be a supporter of the italian setting of Mad King James in his Setup Discussion thread. That's mean one province less as core (391), and a vassal state as neighbour (392), keeping the core on this province.
Gamewise:
1- The Papal States should not be overpowerful in this setting because it would lack any land connections between their provinces and most of them would not have the italian culture.
2- The diplomatic scene in germany would be now of the utmost importance for the Papal States. The Reformation would became much more dramatic. The defense and the attack from such divised state would be very interesting.
3- The events from these germans minors should be integrated in the events of the papal states. Some changes would be needed, of course. I think in particular at some events written by Twoflower.
That's precisely the point. There could be no independant policies for the ecclesiastic states. So, rather that a vassalage, these events should rise the relation between the papal states and the respective countries. High relation means less war, and wars more costly for stability. And it would be more realistic all around.
Well, that's it. What do you think?
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