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Early War Nat-CHI airforce was mostly Soviet (see aircraft numbers post above), I am looking for input on how to impliment the change especially with Bombers and Escorts.
Air

B
1. Cap. Ca 101 (???) [- only 11 delivered]
2. Fiat BR.20 Cic. [-77 delivered]

Tac
1. Doug. A-20 Bos. (Tuplev ANT 40 SB)
2. NAA B-25D Mitch. (Doug A-20 Boston)
3. NAA B-25J Mitch, [~ 200 B25 delivered]

Str
1. NA (TB-3)
2. Cons. B-24 Lib. (Ilyushin DB-3)
3. NA (Cons. B-24 Liberator)

CAS
1. Vultree V-12 (Vought V-65 Corsair)
2. NA (Curtiss A-12)
3. NA (P-47 Thunderbolt)

Nav
1. Loc. Hudson (Gamma)
2. NA (Lockheed A-29 Hudson)
3. NA (B-25J Mitch)

Tra
1. C-32 (FW 58)
2. C-47 (C-32)
3. NA (Douglas C-47 Dakota)

EFig
1. Hawk 3
2. Hawk 75A (Polikarpov I-15bis)

IntF
1. Tomahawk (Polikarpov I-16)
2. N.Am. P-51B (Curtiss P-40E Kittyhawk)
3. NA (D.H.98 Mosquito FB.26)

EscF
1. P-38D Lightning (Republic P43A Lancer)
2. P-38J Lightning
3. NA (NAA P-51C)

Fig
1. Kittyhawk (Curtiss Hawk-75A)
2. P-47 Thunderbolt (Curtiss P-40N Warhawk)
3. NAA P-51D

****
Other prop combat aircraft delivered in bulk
Vultee P-66 - 130
D.H.98 Mosquito FB.26 - 250
Northrop 8A-1 - 150
Republic P43A Lancer - 100
Curtis Hawk II - 100
Seversky P-43 -100?
From: http://www.worldairforces.com/Countries/china/nch.html
 
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Duke_of_BOOM! said:
Early War Nat-CHI airforce was mostly Soviet (see aircraft numbers post above), I am looking for input on how to impliment the change especially with Bombers and Escorts.
Air

B (???)
1. Cap. Ca 101
2. Fiat BR.20 Cic.

TB (???)
1. Doug. A-20 Bos.
2. N.Am. B-25D Mitch.
3. N.Am. B-25J Mitch,

SB (???)
1. NA
2. Cons. B-24 Lib.
3. NA

CAS (???)
1. Vultree V-12
2. NA
3. NA

NB
1. Loc. Hudson (Gamma)
2. NA (Loc. Hudson)
3. NA

AT
1. C-32 (FW 58)
2. C-47 (C-32)
3. NA (C-47)

EF
1. Hawk 3
2. Hawk 75A (P I-15)

I
1. Tomahawk (Hawk 75A)
2. N.Am. P-51B (Tomahawk)
3. NA (N.Am. P-51B)

Esc F (???)
1. P-38D Lightning
2. P-38J Lightning
3. NA

F
1. Kittyhawk (P I-16)
2. P-47 Thunderbolt
3. P-51D
Click to expand...

KMT didn´t use the Fiat BR20 (the Japs did ), they did however by half dozen Savoia-Marchetti S.72 and the same number of Heinkel He 111A for their "Heavy" Bomber Sqaudrons. They also got a few TB-3´s ( an early 30´s Heavy bomber) from the USSR though I´m unsure if they were equipped as bombers. As for CAS type 1 I would suggest the Vultee V-65 Corsair as most KMT attack Sqn in 1936-37 where equipped with that machine.

Edit: That should be Vought V-65 and not Vultee, sorry
 
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Edited, but still short an NB.
arc3371 said:
KMT didn´t use the Fiat BR20 (the Japs did ), they did however by half dozen Savoia-Marchetti S.72 and the same number of Heinkel He 111A for their "Heavy" Bomber Sqaudrons. They also got a few TB-3´s ( an early 30´s Heavy bomber) from the USSR though I´m unsure if they were equipped as bombers. As for CAS type 1 I would suggest the Vultee V-65 Corsair as most KMT attack Sqn in 1936-37 where equipped with that machine.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that helped a bunch.
 
arc3371 said:
Duke_of_BOOM! if you want to I could help you with info about the KMT aircraft deliveries which leads me to the P-38 according to my books they never got the fighterversion only 59 of the F-5 (recon version of the P-38), but couldn´t the
P-51 be classed as an escort fighter?
Click to expand...

Historically, the P-51 REPLACED the P-38 as the preferred escort fighter. The P-38 was relegated to ground attack roles, which it shared with the superior P-47. During Korea, Air Force pilots mourned the mass scrapping of the P-47, as the P-51 was an inferior ground attack plane. which was it's primary role then.
 
Can anyone confirm delivery of Soviet airplanes to KMT after the start of the Great Patriotic War? I have been unable to verify it outside of wikiapedia.

TB-3's and DB-3's where delivered in very small quantity, and where used primarily for transportion. The Soviets extended a line of credit to Nat-CHI with which to buy airplanes, they could have purchased them instead of Tuplev ANT 40 SBs.

@Zebedee - Thanks for the links, very helpful.

arc3371 said:
Duke_of_BOOM! if you want to I could help you with info about the KMT aircraft deliveries which leads me to the P-38 according to my books they never got the fighterversion only 59 of the F-5 (recon version of the P-38), but couldn´t the P-51 be classed as an escort fighter?
Click to expand...
Yes I was thinking that myself, but then it is also a fighter and possibly also an interceptor. Kind of a strech for the very small amount of planes recieved.

Where P-47s delivered in any quantity?
 
Note: The new units are CHI-COM, but the Ming Dynasty, KMT, and CC all stressed the importance of submarines in a modern Chinese fleet. Chang had hired a German submarine advisor, sent KMT naval personel to a foriegn sub school, and even had attempted to purchase German subs.

ROC NAVY

Naval
CL
1. Ying Swei
2. Ning Hai
3. NA (ROC Chung King)[/Arethusa Class]
4. NA
5. NA
6. NA

BC NONE

CA
1. NA (Chih Yuen)
2. NA
3. NA
4. NA
5. NA
6. NA

CVNONE

DD
1.NA (Chang Feng Class - Ming)
2.NA (Han Yang (class?))[/Benson Class]
3.NA (Nan Yang (class?)[/Gleaves Class])
4.NA (Hei Yang)[/Fletcher Class]
5.Na (Lo Yang class)[/Sumner])
6.NA (Chao Yang[/Gearing])

SS
1. NA
2. NA
3. NA (T Class?)
4. NA (Tench Class?)
5. NA (Hai Shih [/GuppyII Tench])
6. NA (Hai Lung [/Dutch Zwaardvis class- Based on US Barbel])

BB
1. NA (Ting Yuen Class - Ming)
2. NA
3. NA
4. NA
5. NA
6. NA

Other Chinese fleet ship classes (all pre-1912 still around for Sino-Japanese war)
Cruisers: Hai Yung Class (3), Chao Ho (2), Hai Tien Class (1), Tung Chi Class (1)

ROC also uses the Zwaardvis class named the HAI LUNG.
 
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Duke_of_BOOM! said:
Can anyone confirm delivery of Soviet airplanes to KMT after the start of the Great Patriotic War? I have been unable to verify it outside of wikiapedia.
Click to expand...

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_bombers_in_china.htm

The last SU SB bombers were delivered in June 1941 but by then the KMT were already starting to switch over to US equipment. Not got any info about other aircraft but I'd imagine that they would have stopped being delivered at roughly the same time. ie not much coming from the SU once they had the Germans to deal with.
 
Found anouther link for Nat-Chi Aircraft numbers, I am thinking the deliveries post June '41 where to CHI-Com after the fall of Menchuko. http://www.worldairforces.com/Countries/china/nch.html

mib said:
I don't think Han class would/should be considered appropriate for use in 1947 or so... It's like having M16s in the Korean War. :eek:
Click to expand...

I'll take it out... Though I was thinking of all the fun it would be trying to have a nuclear program with the given Chinese tech teams. :D
 
Duke_of_BOOM! said:
I'll take it out... Though I was thinking of all the fun it would be trying to have a nuclear program with the given Chinese tech teams. :D
Click to expand...
Which makes me think that Academia Sinica should have at least one of the 2 nuke tech specialties... :eek: though it might not be very realistic!
 
It seems to me that the purpose of this thread is to create an HOI Chinese military from the spare parts they recieved from allies and opponents during the course of the war. This will be a great undertaking, and I doubt it will be useful to anyone. The reason China relied so heavily on the US, Japan, Soviet UNion and England is because she had no industry of her own. HOI changes that and allows China to build up her industry so that someday she may build Carriers and such.

We can look at the nomenclature of the modern PLA/PLN/PLAF and determine some names that could be used. Granted, the Fu Zhou is a modern Soveremenny class (HaiZhou classn China) guided missle destroyer... but so what! The prides of the Chinese Navy in 1939 were two light cruisers, one of which was built in Japan!!! It's just a nme! FuZhou sounds great for the Carrier 1 Series!

So... for Cags... How about we use I-15/SB . Then maybe the Hawk33/SBC, and then... How about the Q-1 "Chin" (named after Chinese ace Art Chin), and the J-2 "Chui-Keng" (another Chinese ace).

Either way... we're inventing a nomenclature that didn't exist, for vessels and equipment that didn't exist, but... in the realm of HOI... can and do exist.
 
Duke_of_BOOM! said:
Yes I was thinking that myself, but then it is also a fighter and possibly also an interceptor. Kind of a strech for the very small amount of planes recieved.

Where P-47s delivered in any quantity?
Click to expand...

No P-47´s where delivered during WW2, like the Mosquito they were bought surplus after the war. The problem is to seperate what was delivered first to what faction and secondly when (as much equipment was delivered after WW2) and thirdly much of the equipment that were ordered/allocated under lend-lease was never delivered.

Having said that, how about using I-15bis or I-16, Curtiss Hawk-75 and Vultee P-66 (which BTW was ordered as the J-10 for the Swedish airforce) as interceptors and thereby being able to use the P-40C/E/N and P-43 as multi role fighters.
 
ExMech said:
Historically, the P-51 REPLACED the P-38 as the preferred escort fighter. The P-38 was relegated to ground attack roles, which it shared with the superior P-47. During Korea, Air Force pilots mourned the mass scrapping of the P-47, as the P-51 was an inferior ground attack plane. which was it's primary role then.
Click to expand...

Well i know that the P-51 replaced the P-47/P-38 in US service because they were cheaper but is this applicable to China?
 
arc3371 said:
Well i know that the P-51 replaced the P-47/P-38 in US service because they were cheaper but is this applicable to China?
Click to expand...

Yeah. The US arsenal depended on the P-51, which is why China didn't recieve delivery until early '45. The only P-38's that were recieved were less than 20 F-5's (the unarmed Recon variant). Of the rest of the 680 fighters, the vast majority were P-40's (380 of all variants), with about 100 each of the P-66's and Seversky P-43's (both retired from US service).

With the exception of the P-51D through K's (only 50 of all variants delivered), the Chinese Air Force consisted of obsolete fighters. Note that weren't any Naval Fighters, leaving the HOI Chinese without any historical CAG's.

So... May I suggest that the ROC, much like it's PLA descendants, began building Chinese versions of various aircraft, with Chinese nomenclature. Knowing that the Jian-6 was the Chinese built Mig-19, with the Jian-5 being the Mig-17... whatever happened to the Jian 1 through 4's? These could certainly be our Chinese fighters.
 
J-2 was the Mig-15 designation and used after China and SU got peeved with each other (ie at the time of use it was called the Mig-15 in China).

Chinese number sequences start with 5 - number 4 is unlucky (sounds like the word for 'death'). There were no J-1s. J-3s or J-4s.
 
arc3371 said:
Having said that, how about using I-15bis or I-16, Curtiss Hawk-75 and Vultee P-66 (which BTW was ordered as the J-10 for the Swedish airforce) as interceptors and thereby being able to use the P-40C/E/N and P-43 as multi role fighters.
Click to expand...

P-40's are listed as MR fighters with the US arsenal, and so there is some continuity there. The P-43A-1 Lancer's, however, only had provison for 200lbs of bombs (1x200lb or 6x20lb). Hardly enough to fill the multi-role slot. With decent speed (350 @20k ft), and 4 fifty caliber guns, it should fill the interceptor or escort roles. Even the P-47's were used by the US as escorts until the advent of the P-51B.
 
ExMech said:
P-40's are listed as MR fighters with the US arsenal, and so there is some continuity there. The P-43A-1 Lancer's, however, only had provison for 200lbs of bombs (1x200lb or 6x20lb). Hardly enough to fill the multi-role slot. With decent speed (350 @20k ft), and 4 fifty caliber guns, it should fill the interceptor or escort roles. Even the P-47's were used by the US as escorts until the advent of the P-51B.
Click to expand...

Ok so if we use the P-43 as an escort that would leave us only with P-40´s as multirole fighters.

Edit: There were some Morane-Saulnier MS406 ordered but not delivered by the KMT if we include them that would give us another type to play with.
 
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