Giants and Vanir in Continental Germanic Mythology?

[Gurkhal]

I was reading about stuff and came upon a notion that giants and Vanir, fairly prominent in Norse mythology, were in fact only an aspect of said mythology and that the giants, Vanir and Freyja in particular did not have a role outside of Scandinavia (and Scandinavian founded colonies during the Viking Age). But I haven't been able to find further confirmation or refutation of this claim myself.

Hence I come here for some enlightenment if Vanir, Freyja and giants a part of Continental Germanic mythologies or a strictly Scandinavian phenomena?

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

We know so little of the German variety of Germanic paganism (and virtually all of it from outsiders) that even if the above are absent in evidence (which I don't doubt) the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" pops to mind.

 

[Geriander]

Ingwaz/Ing who may be the Vanir Freyr was worshiped among both the Goths and Anglo-Saxons. https://books.google.se/books?lr=&h...the+Goddess&q=goths#v=snippet&q=goths&f=false
This also covers the theory that Freyja and Frigg may have once been a single godess. There are mentions of Frigg on the continent so it is possible that the split happened later and was limited to Scandinavia.

The similarities between the Jötnar and Greco-Roman Titans are significant. Both are giants who are both the ancestors to and adversaries of the gods (plus a deal of intermarrying). This could be due to Roman influence on Norse mythology or a common origin in a proto-Indo-European mythology. The Fomorians in Irish Celtic mythology also have some similarities.

 

[Gurkhal]

We know so little of the German variety of Germanic paganism (and virtually all of it from outsiders) that even if the above are absent in evidence (which I don't doubt) the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" pops to mind.

So much is true of course in that absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence and we have a scarcity of sources.

Ingwaz/Ing who may be the Vanir Freyr was worshiped among both the Goths and Anglo-Saxons. https://books.google.se/books?lr=&h...the+Goddess&q=goths#v=snippet&q=goths&f=false
This also covers the theory that Freyja and Frigg may have once been a single godess. There are mentions of Frigg on the continent so it is possible that the split happened later and was limited to Scandinavia.

The similarities between the Jötnar and Greco-Roman Titans are significant. Both are giants who are both the ancestors to and adversaries of the gods (plus a deal of intermarrying). This could be due to Roman influence on Norse mythology or a common origin in a proto-Indo-European mythology. The Fomorians in Irish Celtic mythology also have some similarities.

Thanks for the book mentioned, I'll see if I can't get hold of it and see more of what it says on the matter in more detail.

As for the Jötnar och Titans I agree that there are similarities although I feel that they occupy a somewhat different role in the respective mythologies.

The Jötnar are after all the eternal enemies of the Aesir and are a chaos power here and now to threaten the order of the world, which to my knowledge they must be constantly held back by the gods. While the Titans looks more like a defeated enemy the gods once defeated but who are gone as a force of chaos: defeated, buried and gone forever. As such they are not an active threat like the Jötnar are.

EDITED: I know to little about Celtic mythology to comment on that though.

 

[Geriander]

So much is true of course in that absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence and we have a scarcity of sources.



Thanks for the book mentioned, I'll see if I can't get hold of it and see more of what it says on the matter in more detail.

As for the Jötnar och Titans I agree that there are similarities although I feel that they occupy a somewhat different role in the respective mythologies.

The Jötnar are after all the eternal enemies of the Aesir and are a chaos power here and now to threaten the order of the world, which to my knowledge they must be constantly held back by the gods. While the Titans looks more like a defeated enemy the gods once defeated but who are gone as a force of chaos: defeated, buried and gone forever. As such they are not an active threat like the Jötnar are.

EDITED: I know to little about Celtic mythology to comment on that though.

The Anglo-Saxon godess Ēostre may also be a candidate for continental Freyja but the sources are too limited to be sure. The name Freyja itself could have started as a title (Lady) just as in the case of Frey (Lord) so that would explain why their continental versions have very different names. The Nordics could have called her Lady Ēostre and him Lord Ing and gradually shortened the names to Lady and Lord while the Ango-Saxons kept the names.

 

[Arilou]

There is some debate over whether or not Eostre was ever a goddess, or simply an epiteth ("Shining", which also comes in greek Eos)

The Jötnar are after all the eternal enemies of the Aesir and are a chaos power here and now to threaten the order of the world, which to my knowledge they must be constantly held back by tods.

Which is quite unclear, since at several points according to some sources the aesir intermarry with giants.

The main problem is simply that not only are our sources incredibly scarce for continental germany, they are not much better for scandinavia, and what sources we DO have are separated by more than half a millennium. We have no way of knowing if the christianized high-medieval version we get Snorri, the Poetic Edda or the various poems bear much resemblence to the early-medieval version actually practiced, much less the even earlier continental germanic version.

Basically we have a bunch of names and seemingly an association with concepts, but their exact relationships are unclear, and that is if these relationships were ever actually codified and and static in the first place.

 

[Gurkhal]

Which is quite unclear, since at several points according to some sources the aesir intermarry with giants.

The main problem is simply that not only are our sources incredibly scarce for continental germany, they are not much better for scandinavia, and what sources we DO have are separated by more than half a millennium. We have no way of knowing if the christianized high-medieval version we get Snorri, the Poetic Edda or the various poems bear much resemblence to the early-medieval version actually practiced, much less the even earlier continental germanic version.

Basically we have a bunch of names and seemingly an association with concepts, but their exact relationships are unclear, and that is if these relationships were ever actually codified and and static in the first place.

I do not think that is very unclear from what sources we have. From the beginning of the world when Odinn and his brothers slew Ymir and to Ragnarök the relation between the Aesir and the Jötnar have been one of contest. Has it included marriage and occasional cooperation? Yes, but the allies of the Aesir seems by all purposes to have been the Vanir, in Norse mythology, and while opposition comes from giants.

And while I agree that we have a scarcity of sources at some point you've got to say. "These are the sources we have and this is what we can draw from them" as opposed to endlessly wallowing in all what we cannot or do not know. So while I agree that sources should be looked over with a critical eye, we must accept what sources we do have.

And I am utterly convinced that a experienced hand at archeology and eye at history can get a great deal information from the sources that we do have, far more than us laymen can hope to do. As such I put my trust in the professials of the field.

 

[Geriander]

There is some debate over whether or not Eostre was ever a goddess, or simply an epiteth ("Shining", which also comes in greek Eos)

The only text claiming that Eostre was a godess was by Bede:

Eosturmonathhas a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.

As a name it has been tied to several other Indo-European godesses of the dawn and as you say Eos. The name is also used for easter in old and present day German so whatever it meant it was widely associated with the spring equinox. Bede could of course have made up the godess part, for what was really a celebration of light, but that isn’t really what I would expect clergy to do.