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Jopa79

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Aug 14, 2016
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According to the dictionary sympathy means to experience other person's pleasure or displeasure as own. Parallel into this view, the Global opinion during the Winter War was to favor the Finnish war effort -but in the end the Global support proved to be mostly immaterial. This thread is about the desire to support the Finns in their struggle, but the will turned into an unwillingness in the field of the Global politics and nations' own interest.
Kukka.JPG


The Soviet Union staged artillery fire accusing the Finns and proceeded to invade Finland -this is better known as the Winter War. Shortly after the staged episode the League of Nations condemned the Soviet activities and expelled it and recommended the other member states to support Finland. Particurarly some South American nations and France commented on their disapproval on the Soviet actions with aggressive words. The international press settled to back up the Finns and this fact had a major impact with the Global opinion throughout the Winter War - undoubtedly the international press embellished the actual warfare and the reports from the fronts, like creating the myth of the Mannerheim-Line as a heavily fortified, deep and unbreakable one. The Finns managed to shoot a lot of film material of the actual warfare and in the homefront also, this was because the filming stocks reserved for the 1940 Summer Olympics granted for Helsinki which never happened. In any case with this film material the Finns were capable to show the world the misery of the civilian population and at the same time the incredible victories with trophys in the fronts.

Swedish_Winter_War_volunteers.jpg


Finland received the most significant foreign aid in material from Sweden. A civilian movement was established in the country - Finlands sak är vår, the Finnish cause is ours. Over 8 000 Swedish volunteered during the Winter War and they fought in the Northern Finland having a front liability there. The Swedish aid was truely unselfish and real, the Swedish Air Forces assigned 30% of their total strenght for the support, but against the tremendous superiority, the Swedish war support didn't help the Finns in the outcome of the war. It must be added that Sweden would have been able to support in the Finnish war effort considerably more efficiently, but the nation wanted to stay out of the war. By standing in the Finnish side officially Sweden estimated it would lead to an open conflict with the Soviets. Later on the Swedish didn't want a clash with the Germans and therefore made concessions, like trading with Germany.

franco-british.png


If realized, the Franco-British plans for intervention in the Winter War would have been a remarkable event in the Winter War and even in the World War II. France and England made series of proposals to send troops to aid the Finns as much as 50 000 in men and all kind of military equipment as well. In the end this plan turned to be mostly theoretical, although it partially happened after the Winter War during the Norwegian Campaign. This event was heavily affected by the valuable minerals and resources in the Northern Scandinavia and in Finland. The French and the British were keen to secure these deposits as well as the Germans and the Soviets. It is dubious if the French and the British were willing to aid the Finns, propably their interest were in the resources. Accustomed to a completely different climate, these Allied troops would propably have low value and morale in the freezing temperatures and blizzards in the Winter War. This project crashed because of the internal arguements between the French and the British, further more Norway and Sweden refused the transit of the Allied troops. If Franco-British troops would have arrived to Finland, it would propably have been a war between the Allies and the Soviets.

220px-SuomiKokousNewYorkissa.jpg


The United States of America wasn't a member in the League of Nations and therefore the country didn't experience any compelling reasons to take action because the outbreak of the Winter War. Still Finland received whole-hearted support from the American Press. Also the Finnish Relief Fund was an American humanitarian aid organization aiming to support the Finnish war effort, initiated by former president Herbert Hoover(left in the picture above). For example a part of the income of the entry tickets for the movie 'Gone With the Wind' was forwarded to the Relief Fund. Also, very remarkable fact is the fund raising program by the Finnish long-distance runners, Olympic gold medalist and the World Record holder in 10 000m, Paavo Nurmi and Taisto Mäki. During the Winter War these two Finnish runners completed the 'American Tour' running in different arenas and stadiums in all over the U.S and raising funds for the Finnish cause. In the video below, they are running in fully crowded Madison Square Garden, New York.


Standing as a neutral and a non-aligned country didn't prevent Finland against its own will from falling into a war and the country was alone in the Winter War - the rest of the world followed the events of the war feeling sympathy for the Finns, but staying out from the conflict. During the following years, for its own interest Germany prevented the Finnish trading routes and Finland without other options was forced to co-operate with the Germans. Now the Global sympathy was gone and Finland was seen as a hostile nation. Many of those countries with friendly attitude towards Finland during the Winter War declared war on Finland, including the Great Britain.
 
I will say that: when dealing against mass arms military tactic country, they are much important things than sympathies. Finland was neutral, but this war was definetely ideology-based (on Soviet side). This, added to the fact that major neutral states were basically dead by that time (case of Poland) or already chosen ideological block on basis on need to self-defence (like Romania) made Finns unable to get weaponry help from other unaligned countries. And in each war overproduction of weaponry is what rans it against the enemy.
I will say though that as left alone country, you did gracious things to deal with Soviets ;).
 
As we use to say "love is deeds, not nice words".

Or as Eliza Doolittle said...
 
It is the same now. Ukraine, Burma whatever. "Oh, you are getting killed by a more powerful enemy. So sad. So contemptible. But sorry, we can't send you weapons, they would only cause more harm. You need to use diplomacy... maybe you are defending yourself to aggressively."

Empty words are not just wind. They are dangerous, because weaker nations might believe them and then fight wars they cannot win or resent their friends who did not help.
 
Well, at least the US sold them some Buffalos. And the Italians some Fiat G.50s. Came to late to affect the outcome of the Winter War, but still, three months is not a long time for aid to arrive.
Dg9dNzKWAAALA6Q.jpg
 
It is the same now. Ukraine, Burma whatever. "Oh, you are getting killed by a more powerful enemy. So sad. So contemptible. But sorry, we can't send you weapons, they would only cause more harm. You need to use diplomacy... maybe you are defending yourself to aggressively."

Empty words are not just wind. They are dangerous, because weaker nations might believe them and then fight wars they cannot win or resent their friends who did not help.
A little different situation. Finland could not receive weapons because trade routes were blocked. Ukraine for example can buy weapons, and of not legally then illegally from black market. Now if you complain you can only buy assaults weapons and not real guns let me tell you: Finland lacked any kind of basic military equipment like bullets for rifles.
 
A little different situation. Finland could not receive weapons because trade routes were blocked. Ukraine for example can buy weapons, and of not legally then illegally from black market. Now if you complain you can only buy assaults weapons and not real guns let me tell you: Finland lacked any kind of basic military equipment like bullets for rifles.

Yes, I am very much aware of model Cajander army-supplies.

In any case, Finnish trade-routes were not particularly blocked. Even if we ignore Germany, traffic through Sweden and Norway was possible, never mind that there is no good reason that neutral countries like the USA, Spain, Brazil, Argentina and so forth couldn't send supplies directly by boat. Or did Germany prevent all traffic through Kattegatt?

My point still stands. Peacemongering, whether based on weakness or kindness, emboldens the wicked and allows wars to begin but is impotent in stopping them.
 
It is the same now. Ukraine, Burma whatever. "Oh, you are getting killed by a more powerful enemy. So sad. So contemptible. But sorry, we can't send you weapons, they would only cause more harm. You need to use diplomacy... maybe you are defending yourself to aggressively."

Not exactly the same case here. For example Finland bought, loaned or got donated something close to 500 artillery pieces during Winter War. Further 200 obsolete 19th century pieces were donated by France. France and Sweden also supplied about 100 light anti-tank guns. Combined this represented firepower comfortably in excess of the Finnish pre-war artillery park. It was also the sole Finnish acqusition of siege artillery during WW2. The problem was that both the purchases (many were made on the side of 1940) and deliveries were tardy, the weapons overwhelmingly did not reach the front during Winter War and continued to arrive at least through mid 1940.
 
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Well, at least the US sold them some Buffalos. And the Italians some Fiat G.50s. Came to late to affect the outcome of the Winter War, but still, three months is not a long time for aid to arrive.
Dg9dNzKWAAALA6Q.jpg

Yes, the Brewster-deal was signed between Brewster Aeronautical Corporation and the Finnish Government in December 1939. This trade included 43 Brewster aircrafts. Came as a surprise for the Finns, the Americans had reduced the level of equipments of these Brewsters, there were no instrument panels, either viewfinders and the armament was missing of all the aircrafts. Only 4 Brewsters arrived in Finland during the Winter War.

Maybe you already know, but the picture you posted presents indeed American Buffalo Brewster F2A-1 model with Finnish Air Force Identity, but this picture is taken in 1943 during the Continuation War. The pilot on the wings is famous Hans "Hasse" Wind. Fighter Ace Wind has 75 confirmed air combat victories, second most in the history of the Finnish Air Forces.
 
Unfortunately, countries of the West, including the U.S.**, suffer from Ostrich Syndrome*. Take a look at the modern West and the U.N. How many horrible dictators are killing "their" own people *cough*Maduro*cough* and just get a politely worded letter asking them if they'd consider not killing so many people?

*Purposely not paying attention to actions done by others as to not have to do anything, despite previous statements or actions stating the latter would.

**The U.S. has the opposite of Ostrich Syndrome but is generally too busy with lesser problems they may have indirectly caused or exacerbated.
 
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I have heard it said Finland was the only "Axis" power to pay their war debts in full, and indeed due to sympathy for their predicament were not officially listed as an Axis power at all but simply a "co-belligerent." Either of these true? I'd like to think so. Much respect for Finland.
 
In any case, Finnish trade-routes were not particularly blocked. Even if we ignore Germany, traffic through Sweden and Norway was possible, never mind that there is no good reason that neutral countries like the USA, Spain, Brazil, Argentina and so forth couldn't send supplies directly by boat. Or did Germany prevent all traffic through Kattegatt?

Per Soviet request, Germany was blocking supplies to Finland. So basically the only "safe" way to get supplies to Finland was the overland route through Norway/Sweden, and there's only so much that could go through such a route (poor infrastructure, as the Germans learned to their dismay during the Lapland War). Example: Italy sent modern fighter aircraft to Finland that were desperately needed, but they were all impounded in Germany. At this point in time, Hitler viewed Stalin as a more important ally than Mussolini.

In any case, back to the original topic...

The Finns worked hard to curry international favor, supporting the Kellogg-Briand pact outlawing war, having a robust diplomatic corps, being a founding member of the League of Nations (including sending the Aland islands dispute to the League for peaceful arbitration), even nearly sinking their own Navy in their zeal to participate in the coronation ceremony of King George IV in 1937.

All their enthusiasm for internationalism was for nothing. Finland was totally unprepared to fight the Winter War, lacking even basic things like helmets and ammo, because they put too much trust in "global sympathy." Finland learned the hard way that when the chips are down, countries will look after their own interests first. When the USSR invaded, the League of Nations expelled the Soviets and then proved itself utterly powerless. Friendly fellow democracies such as Britain and France, despite their shared values, already had their hands full with Hitler and sought to avoid war with Stalin if it could be helped (though everyone knew Stalin and Hitler were in cahoots by that point, as they had jointly invaded Poland just a few months prior).

The ultimate lesson here is that soft power is no substitute for hard power. National defense cannot be abrogated in favor of idealist pacifism. All the "global sympathy", all the support of peace on earth and good will towards Man mean nothing to the likes of predators such as Stalin. Finland learned that lesson the hard way and they haven't forgotten it. In recent decades most European nations have gutted their militaries, but Finland still has conscription and a credible military force -- proof that Finland is able and willing to defend itself if necessary.
 
I have heard it said Finland was the only "Axis" power to pay their war debts in full, and indeed due to sympathy for their predicament were not officially listed as an Axis power at all but simply a "co-belligerent." Either of these true? I'd like to think so. Much respect for Finland.

Finland never signed the Tripartite Pact, the Military Alliance of the Axis Powers. Unlike Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Croatia, Finland underlined it waged separate war as a co-belligerent.

If we put together all the wars of the 20th century, Finland is still the only country in the world that fully completed war reparations and this was done during 1944-1952 without any Western money(Marshall Aid).

Some words of the Finnish predicament and the Allied sympathy towards them. During the Yalta Conference, the US, the UK and the Soviets also discussed the Finnish matter and the existence of Finland in post-war Europe. Churchill and Roosevelt told in their views it would also be important for securing stable conditions in the continent, if Finland could remain independent and also the city of Vyborg should remain Finnish. Stalin disagreed, however. Launching the major offensive in the Karelian Isthmus in June 1944(simultaneously with the Allied Invasion of Normandy) the Russians captured Vyborg just after some 5-8 hour battle of the city. Near the total collapse, the Finns rallied their troops and managed to wear out the Soviet strenght at least in 3 major Soviet offensives(Tali-Ihantala, Äyräpää-Vuosalmi and Ilomantsi). In theory the Western Allies were willing to aid Finland in every possible way in the post-war time, but this didn't happen because of the Soviet pressure.
 
Finland never signed the Tripartite Pact, the Military Alliance of the Axis Powers. Unlike Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Croatia, Finland underlined it waged separate war as a co-belligerent.

If we put together all the wars of the 20th century, Finland is still the only country in the world that fully completed war reparations and this was done during 1944-1952 without any Western money(Marshall Aid).

Some words of the Finnish predicament and the Allied sympathy towards them. During the Yalta Conference, the US, the UK and the Soviets also discussed the Finnish matter and the existence of Finland in post-war Europe. Churchill and Roosevelt told in their views it would also be important for securing stable conditions in the continent, if Finland could remain independent and also the city of Vyborg should remain Finnish. Stalin disagreed, however. Launching the major offensive in the Karelian Isthmus in June 1944(simultaneously with the Allied Invasion of Normandy) the Russians captured Vyborg just after some 5-8 hour battle of the city. Near the total collapse, the Finns rallied their troops and managed to wear out the Soviet strenght at least in 3 major Soviet offensives(Tali-Ihantala, Äyräpää-Vuosalmi and Ilomantsi). In theory the Western Allies were willing to aid Finland in every possible way in the post-war time, but this didn't happen because of the Soviet pressure.

Very insightful clarification. Thank you!
 
Yes, the Brewster-deal was signed between Brewster Aeronautical Corporation and the Finnish Government in December 1939. This trade included 43 Brewster aircrafts. Came as a surprise for the Finns, the Americans had reduced the level of equipments of these Brewsters, there were no instrument panels, either viewfinders and the armament was missing of all the aircrafts. Only 4 Brewsters arrived in Finland during the Winter War.

Maybe you already know, but the picture you posted presents indeed American Buffalo Brewster F2A-1 model with Finnish Air Force Identity, but this picture is taken in 1943 during the Continuation War. The pilot on the wings is famous Hans "Hasse" Wind. Fighter Ace Wind has 75 confirmed air combat victories, second most in the history of the Finnish Air Forces.

Yes, I already knew. And it is colorized by Marina Amaral, definitely worth a folllow on twitter if you're interested in quality colorizations of historical photos.