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Gotshalk and the Obodrytes kingdom

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As I know, we won`t be able to play pagan countries in CK. Bad news, because I wanted to play Polabian slavonic countries and kick some german`s asses ;)))
But today, I read some historical books, and found, that Duke Gotshalk of Obodrytes country /now Lubek - Rostock - Oldenburg region and Ruegen island/ conversed to Catholicism. He was quite a good ruler, but some years later was couped by nobles and pagan supporters, who was against Gotshalk`s centralisation efforts.
So, I think, it will be good, if we`ll be able to help Gotshalk and his heirs to instore the Cristian Polab-Slavonic state.
 
Hmmm, now that is interesting.

According to my notes, Prince Gottschalk got whacked on 7 June 1066, so it is indeed possible that they may be playable, depending on whether the game starts that early in 1066, or, if not, whether it can still be considered a Christian nation after the removal of the Prince...
 
I think in 1066 Gottschalk was rather the exception than the rule. His father was a pagan who converted to Christianity, and Gottschalk himself was Christian, then pagan, then Christian again. The pagan revolts which killed Gottschalk (1066) also wiped out the Mecklenburg bishoprics (Mecklenburg, Oldenburg, Ratzeburg).

Well after Gottschalk's death, in fact even during the time of Henry the Lion and Albert the Bear a century later, the Slavs in the Mecklenburg area were still mainly pagans. The Wendish dioceses were only re-established by Henry the Lion & Archbishop Hartwig of Bremen at Lubeck, Ratzeburg, & Schwerin (114:cool:, and it wasnt until 1168 that Valdemar I the Great destroyed the heathen shrine at Arcona on the island of Rugen.
 
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I guess they won't be in the game then, but the HRE should have a CB to avenge the destruction of christanity in the area.

BTW, do we know if dioceses can be set up and torn down? Also can someone post a map of the area this tread is talking about?
 
Originally posted by historycaesar
I guess they won't be in the game then, but the HRE should have a CB to avenge the destruction of christanity in the area.

BTW, do we know if dioceses can be set up and torn down? Also can someone post a map of the area this tread is talking about?
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They will be in the game all right, as they were still a powerful, if pagan state. They just won't be playable if pagan.

The area we are talking about is northeastern Germany, basically the modern state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. In fact, the Obodrit state was the direct lineal precursor of the later Duchy of Mecklenburg...
 
Like this or do I have too much circled?

pagans.JPG
 
A bit too much in the west, Jaron. The frontier between the Obodrits and the Holy Roman Empire was more or less the Elbe...

Five posts to go! :D
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
A bit too much in the west, Jaron. The frontier between the Obodrits and the Holy Roman Empire was more or less the Elbe...

Five posts to go! :D
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Still a good chunk of land. Should make for a good early crusade target for the northern kingdoms.:cool:
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
They will be in the game all right, as they were still a powerful, if pagan state. They just won't be playable if pagan.
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Sorry meant not playible... I intend as the HRE to rid the Germany of Pagans!
 
The Kings of Germany set up frontier marches in the lands between the Elbe & Oder; the northernmost march, between Holstein in the west, Pomerania in the east, and Brandenburg to the south, was originally the "Billung March" (936). The Billung Margraves continued its conquest, colonization, & Christianization but the populace remained mostly Slavic & pagan and paid tribute to the Saxons.

The Wends revolted (983), razed the bishoprics, and thereafter struggled to remain independent from Germany, Denmark, & Poland. Gottschalk promoted Christianity but in the ensuing heathen reaction was martyred (1066). After the Wendish Crusade (1147), Duke Henry the Lion of Saxony & Archbishop Hartwig of Bremen were able to refound the bishoprics (114:cool: and press Christianity.

Henry then led several campaigns into the area (now called Mecklenburg after the ruling family's stronghold) in alliance & competition with Valdemar I the Great of Denmark; at first (1158-1167), he sought direct rule and forced conversion, but finally settled for feudal overlordship, and the now-Christian "Princes" of Mecklenburg became his vassals.

When Henry revolted against Frederick I Barbarossa, the Obodrite Prince Niklot was freed from Saxon overlordship and made a direct vassal of the Emperor (1181). I think this is actually the start of the "Duchy" of Mecklenburg as we know it and its "official" integration into Germany (?).
 
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Originally posted by Wasa
I am looking forward to it..:D anyroad..one of the first things I will do when I have the game is to "play" the Wendisch Crusade..Without it..no Hansa..no Visby..no Gutenhof and furtrade in Novgorod..what would the world have looked like..;)
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I don't know, Wasa. ;)
 
Originally posted by Wasa
I am looking forward to it..:D anyroad..one of the first things I will do when I have the game is to "play" the Wendisch Crusade..Without it..no Hansa..no Visby..no Gutenhof and furtrade in Novgorod..what would the world have looked like..;)
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Saxons still sailing around, raiding... pillvaging... the like.
 
Originally posted by Solmyr
What led to the occupation of much of the coastal areas by Denmark? As far as I know Denmark held the coast of Mecklenburg and Pomerania sometime during that time.
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Well there's probably a Scandinavian here who can answer that better than me. I just remember that Henry the Lion & Valdemar the Great, while allied against the Wends, both sought overlordship. Valdemar had a good reason; Slavic pirates were raiding parts of the Danish coast and generally annoying the Danes in the Baltic. Anyway, while Henry was strong in Germany, Valdemar couldnt really press the issue, but after 1180s when Henry was deprived of his duchies and exiled to England, the Danes had their chance.

Valdemar's sons made good on this claim. Knut VI the Conqueror acquired overlordship of Mecklenburg & Pomerania (1185-), and Valdemar II the Victorious took advantage of a German civil war to conquer Holstein as well (1200-1201). However, he lost all these lands again after his defeat at Bornhoved (1227).
 
Originally posted by Jaron
i'd say keeping them pagan leads for the greatest prospects for the future. :)

I wonder if we'll see oddities like pagan kingdoms in 1420 ;)
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For the Saxons of Germany, Mecklenburg was always a natural outlet for conquest, colonization, & Christianization. And after the Wendish Crusade reopened these lands for Christian expansion, Henry the Lion knew if he didnt do it, the Danes and/or Poles would. So even if we assume a weak Germany, Mecklenburg still wouldve been conquered and converted by the Danes, and if not them, the Poles. It was only a matter of time; a small "Duchy" like Mecklenburg couldnt hold out forever against the determination of three surrounding kingdoms.

And once the issue was settled in Mecklenburg and Pomerania, the "crusades" of these 3 kingdoms targeted Prussia, Livonia, etc. So if you plan to keep them independent and pagan in CK, it wont be easy; good luck! :)
 
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