Great game, but big elephant in the room kind of dampens the mood

[Pelianist-Picardist]

Money, and inequality, in the federation. The tutorial lightly bends canon it feels, as does the living standard within the federation as far as I can tell so far. Commander Pelia (Chief Engineer Season 2), as early as Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, refers to the federation as "this moneyless socialist utopia thing" (real quote from the show). Picard emphatically underlines the lack of money, as does every show at least once, and most shows multiple times. DS9 extensively goes into it, and demonstrates clearly that the federation uses currency when exchanging with other species, but not internally. Gene Roddenberry was working under a censor to smuggle these politics in, so it's a real disappointment to see them seemingly completely airbrushed out, as I was looking to roleplaying a MORE equal earth than the UNE in Stellaris, not less.

Just a bit disappointing. Can someone tell me if there's some sort of society research that opens up an actual equal living standard later on for the federation? Or a tradition? Anything?

I can sort of accept, due to lower decks, that a bureaucratic layer is privileged in the federation, as part of the imperfections that still need to be fought against (all power to the Lower Decks! ). It seems odd to me that it would be a disparity of 200% the living standard of the next layer though.

 

[Triscopic]

Interesting observation. I actually saw Picard as demonstrating a fundamental inequality still baked into the federation. Picard, living in his château, was clearly experiencing a different level of luxury than your average chateau-less citizen might.

 

[fabsh]

The main problem here is that you never really see how Federation citizens live. The shows are concerned with Starfleet people almost exclusively. Those are military personnel. They wouldn't be using money even if the Federation citizens regularly did. An officer in Starfleet can presumably just use any Starfleet resources for free, as long as it's part of their mandate.

Rodenberry never really addressed the details of the Federation moneyless utopia. They couldn't show Earth or other planets like that in TOS due to budget reasons. The TNG episodes where people are on holiday (like on Risa) come closest to this. DS9 is in a special place because it's somewhat of an ad-hoc Starfleet operation and needs to deal with non-Federation realities constantly. But they also never really show us how money works on Bajor or in the Cardassian Union. Or how the restaurant of Sisko's dad works in a world without money or need to have restaurants. He presumably runs it because he likes running a restaurant but do all of the waiters just work there because waiting is their main goal in life? Doubtful.

The original shows up to ENT pretty much ignored this whole issue and glossed over it. I feel this is because this idea mostly doesn't work in practice. First of all, a socialist utopia even in its most thought-out forms has many issues that you'd have to deal with. And secondly, the Federation just doesn't behave very socialist. There's no state control of the economy evident and there seem to be private enterprises still in existence. People are completely free to do what they want. While Engels would probably have described this as a socialist paradise, it's easy to see where massive issues with this come in when you start thinking it through and start writing stories using this premise. So the writers mostly ignored this.

Granted, the newer shows like STD and PIC address some of this, but I never found it convincing. Those writers made so many obvious logical errors all over the place, I don't trust them to be able to handle complex socio-economic issues like "how does a world without money even function?" They don't even understand how big a turbolift tube is or how warp works.

 

[Dinkle Dwarf]

And yet, Starfleet personnel always had the ability to pay for Quarks, where did they get money from?

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

Interesting observation. I actually saw Picard as demonstrating a fundamental inequality still baked into the federation. Picard, living in his château, was clearly experiencing a different level of luxury than your average chateau-less citizen might.

Personal property and private property are not the same thing, and the Picard show itself is set in a federation straying from its ideals. That being said the Picard show has rios go "oh right, money" in season 2 when he goes back in time, because it does not exist. When I qas saying "picard" though, I meant his speeches in TNG and its movies, not the show.

Also, for the chateau, you must keep in mind no one there is paid. So it's like sisko's dad's free restaurant: a labour of love.

 

[belechannas]

Since Star Trek canon is the work of dozens of loosely correlated writers, hoping for a consistent picture of a complex idea only incidentally relevant to the stories is over-optimistic.

I kind of imagined it as a welfare system where a very high standard of living was guaranteed to all, but there were still incentives for those willing to contribute their labor and creativity to society by doing productive/useful work.

I can't imagine that every citizen of the Federation is entitled to their own luxury space-yacht, or a year-round cabana with holosuite on the shores of Risa. But many would like to have those amenities, or others like them, and it wouldn't be utopia if they were completely out of reach, either.

So basically, just because nobody lacks for anything they need doesn't mean everyone is entitled to everything they want.

It might conceivably be possible, with advanced AI and limitless computing power and data bandwidth, to have a centrally-planned economy that works as well as a price system. After all, this *is* science fiction...

 

[Calvax]

And yet, Starfleet personnel always had the ability to pay for Quarks, where did they get money from?

The longstanding fan interpretation is that Starfleet grants a per diem to personnel stationed outside of the Federation in monetary economies. They don't need it to live but it can be spent on luxuries. That latinum comes from trade deals that the Federation makes with other societies.

 

[rick19572021]

And yet, Starfleet personnel always had the ability to pay for Quarks, where did they get money from?

They replicated it.

I always felt that the addition of money in DS9 was pretty stupid and uninteresting.

 

[:Charlemunculus]

Weirdly The Orville did a better job of clearly outlining what a genuine moneyless utopia could look like and how it can work that Star Trek ever has, as others have mentioned the many different writers with many different ideas who have worked together over half a century to contribute to what is star trek canon have often had cotnradictory ideas about it. It is also not even clear if the UFP is moneyless or if that is a human/earth cultural thing, other federation members might have money and certainly have social stratification in various degrees (but also the actual membership of the federation isnt always clear, like I dont think its ever clearly stated that Trill circa DS9 is a member world or is not for example). Star Trek also has not been consistent about its post-scarcity world building, star fleet has been depicted having issues with resourcing before and needing to make choices based on what they can "afford" (thinking especially of the war flashbacks in the most recent season of SNW, where the war medic team doesnt have enough supplies and no apparent way to replicate more). Basically when you have a concept so hard for us to wrap our heads around and you dont clearly outline world building rules about it, over 50+ years and hundreds of writers its going to end up being inconsistent, so I just see the games approach as an extension of that - putting their own spin on it.

I personally don't see any issue with depictions of social stratification in the UFP, and giving you the opportunity to create a more or less utopian federation is a part of the fun of being in charge of your own star trek story. My bigger elephant in the room is the missing internal politics like you have with stellaris, the weird choice to make canon civ homeworlds empty and colonizable, the totally off sound design (why does a licensed star trek game not have star trek sfx and also what is going on with the voice acting), and the extremely limited ship skin options from an IP that is so much about space ships. Like in terms of immersion issues, money/resource issues are low on my unfortunately pretty full list.

 

[fabsh]

And yet, Starfleet personnel always had the ability to pay for Quarks, where did they get money from?

I was under the impression they never paid. We never saw that, did we? I think him serving Starfleet members was part of that special dispensation deal he struck with Sisko at the start of the series to keep operating.

 

[Imp0815]

Overall, what all New-Trek fails to grasp is that the original Star Trek stories are infinitely more mature and above any ideas of current-day assumptions and infantile ideals. This is the core pillar of what is wrong with the money-driven productions in recent decades. It was also pointed out in the recent unrelated discussions that modern writers, so to speak, are incapable of thinking beyond their own reflection, and it's a nice analogy to the matter.

Not having played ST:I yet, i have the fear to see these "trends" reemerge again.

 

[fabsh]

They replicated it.

I always felt that the addition of money in DS9 was pretty stupid and uninteresting.

Can't have Ferengi without money and Ferengi were the best thing about DS9. Besides, they explain extremely early on that the whole reason for latinum (the liquid stuff inside the gold bars, the gold is decorative) being the money is that latinum can't be replicated.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

The main problem here is that you never really see how Federation citizens live. The shows are concerned with Starfleet people almost exclusively. Those are military personnel. They wouldn't be using money even if the Federation citizens regularly did.

Interesting you say "use" money. As that is the term Mariner uses when she says to riker "we don't USE money". Thing is, if it's just starfleet, she would have said "have" or "get" money. But no, she said "we don't use money" as in the society doesn't. This is not a controversial interpretation, it is canon.

Rodenberry never really addressed the details of the Federation moneyless utopia.

He doesn't need to, it's scifi. He can just adopt grand principles and leave it there. And the principle he hammered home MOST was "no money".

First of all, a socialist utopia even in its most thought-out forms has many issues that you'd have to deal with.

Not in scifi. Though star trek DOES deal with it, by having corrupt bureaucrats try to overthrow everything, over and over again.

And yet, Starfleet personnel always had the ability to pay for Quarks, where did they get money from?

Federation stipend for dealing with outside societies, I said so in my post. Also, dax, bashir, and o'brian love to fleece Quark at gambling.

hoping for a consistent picture of a complex idea only incidentally relevant to the stories is over-optimistic.

It doesn't need to be consistent. None of the shows are. But every show gives at least one wink wink nudge nudge nod to the moneylessness as fanservice. The tutorial feels like it's doing the opposite: trolling you if you go in expecting canon utopia.

They replicated it.

I always felt that the addition of money in DS9 was pretty stupid and uninteresting.

No, latinum cannot be replicated. This is why gold is worthless but latinum is not. The addition of money in DS9 was awesome because it CONFIRMED moneylessness and NOT JUST in starfleet.

Think it through, bajor still had money and the station was their property. The federation does not, but runs the station on their behalf.

So quark's uses money, but the federation opens a replomat for everyone that does not use money.

And the federation not using money is so widespread, that Quark DOES NOT PAY THEM RENT. So sisko threatens back rent till he agrees to the manifesto quoting union' demands

 

[Dinkle Dwarf]

I was under the impression they never paid. We never saw that, did we? I think him serving Starfleet members was part of that special dispensation deal he struck with Sisko at the start of the series to keep operating.

You would be incorrect, there are references to them paying for things, best example of this would be during Worf's wedding, where they have to fast and are not allowed to eat, and when they are told that the wedding was off, O'Brian and Bashir order a huge meal immediately, and just as they are about to start eating, Sisko, Martok, and Alexander comes in and tells them that the wedding it back on and Sisco orders Quark to take away the food, Sisco reminding them that that there should be no food for those on the path to Kal'Hyah. Quark tells them there are no refunds for those on the path to Kal'Hyah either

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

You would be incorrect, there are references to them paying for things, best example of this would be during Worf's wedding, where they have to fast and are not allowed to eat, and when they are told that the wedding was off, O'Brian and Bashir order a huge meal immediately, and just as they are about to start eating, Sisko, Martok, and Alexander comes in and tells them that the wedding it back on and Sisco orders Quark to take away the food, Sisco reminding them that that there should be no food for those on the path to Kal'Hyah. Quark tells them there are no refunds for those on the path to Kal'Hyah either

Yeah, they definitely pay quark, but with money they don't care about that is monopoly money to them. Which they earn either gambling or given to them as perdiem to exist in money environment with other civs. Like DS9.

 

[Dinkle Dwarf]

Yeah, they definitely pay quark, but with money they don't care about that is monopoly money to them. Which they earn either gambling or given to them as perdiem to exist in money environment with other civs. Like DS9.

Never said they cared about the money, i just responded to a comment stated that they though that Quark didn't charge Starfleet personnel

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

Never said they cared about the money, i just responded to a comment stated that they though that Quark didn't charge Starfleet personnel

Yes, accuracy is important thanks for clarifying the nuances of DS9

 

[Pattywinks]

Perhaps the major reason I love DS9 and consider it the best Star Trek series is how it looked critically at everything, especially the Federation. I don't recall which episode it was, nor do I think it was necessarily just one, but there are references to how blind the Federation is to everything on the frontier and outside its borders because the core worlds, especially Earth, are essentially paradises. That insinuates some level of inequality at the outskirts, or even on some planets depending on the culture. We see this on both the world O'Brien was on while trying to infiltrate the Orion Syndicate, and the planet Ezri's family works on. Presumably, both planets are part of the Federation in some form, and money still exists, inequality still exists, crime still exists. Also, see the case of the Maquis in the DMZ. There's nuance there, and it might be interesting if the developers could find a way to add that into the game. I think there's a way to do it, perhaps a way to add a level of integration of some worlds, with less integrated colonies having some amount of inequality and crime that goes down as integration goes up. Or maybe a core range radius that is dynamic and can grow depending on certain economic and/or travel dynamics, something like introducing an internal trade system that creates stronger ties to the core worlds, and thus spreading core UFoP philosophies or whatever.

 

[Cassilda]

I always thought that Federation doesn't uses money, but more in the sense that it has abolished finance and capital as contemporary society understands it, more than it has literally abolished every form of private property or every aspect of free enterprise.
Moreover, at least in my opinion, while Starfleet personnel might be allowed to live quite comfortably, there is also to see that you never see a Federation citizen in the shows or movies living in obscene luxury, so probably the Federation provides for free what citizens reasonably need or like, but within certain limits.
Probably luxury residences like Picard's chateau are still passed along a family, as the Federation's socialism seems more utopian than Bolshevik, so it's reasonable to think nobody confiscated the land from Picard's ancestors.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

I always thought that Federation doesn't uses money, but more in the sense that it has abolished finance and capital as contemporary society understands it, more than it has literally abolished every form of private property or every aspect of free enterprise.
Moreover, at least in my opinion, while Starfleet personnel might be allowed to live quite comfortably, there is also to see that you never see a Federation member in the shows or movies living in obscene luxury, so probably the Federation provides for free what citizens reasonably need or like, but within certain limits.
Probably luxury residence like Picard's chateau are still passed along a family, as the Federation's socialism seems more utopian than Bolshevik, so probably nobody confiscated the land from Picard's ancestors.

Yes this seems the gist of it, but in the end it comes down to not having a currency in daily life, and equal living standards even if family inheritances may differ