Great game, but big elephant in the room kind of dampens the mood

[Pattywinks]

I always thought that Federation doesn't uses money, but more in the sense that it has abolished finance and capital as contemporary society understands it, more than it has literally abolished every form of private property or every aspect of free enterprise.
Moreover, at least in my opinion, while Starfleet personnel might be allowed to live quite comfortably, there is also to see that you never see a Federation member in the shows or movies living in obscene luxury, so probably the Federation provides for free what citizens reasonably need or like, but within certain limits.
Probably luxury residence like Picard's chateau are still passed along a family, as the Federation's socialism seems more utopian than Bolshevik, so probably nobody confiscated the land from Picard's ancestors.

The Federation is a post-Scarcity society. Necessities are so plentiful and easily obtained that they are effectively worthless. This is especially true by the TNG era with the advent of replicators. I'd also wager that there is some form of automation involved, meaning there aren't really jobs in the modern sense, allowing people to do what fulfills them. As for private property, socialism/Marxism get a bad rap. In the Communist Manifesto, Marx does not call for the abolition of private property as a whole, but the mass ownership (i.e. hoarding) of property by single individuals, especially given the scarcity of adequate and humane living conditions for the proletariat. He was fine with private property so lang as it met your needs and nothing more. This was bastardized and misinterpreted by both capitalists and Leninists who either had their own agendas or simply took it to an obscene level. Thus, UFoP citizens could still hold private property, but only in line with their needs, with an element of flexability when needs change. Picard's chateau was clearly passed down by his family going back centuries and no one would confiscate it, especially since his societal role is getting people drunk of some killer wine.

 

[Dinkle Dwarf]

Perhaps the major reason I love DS9 and consider it the best Star Trek series is how it looked critically at everything, especially the Federation. I don't recall which episode it was, nor do I think it was necessarily just one, but there are references to how blind the Federation is to everything on the frontier and outside its borders because the core worlds, especially Earth, are essentially paradises. That insinuates some level of inequality at the outskirts, or even on some planets depending on the culture. We see this on both the world O'Brien was on while trying to infiltrate the Orion Syndicate, and the planet Ezri's family works on. Presumably, both planets are part of the Federation in some form, and money still exists, inequality still exists, crime still exists. Also, see the case of the Maquis in the DMZ. There's nuance there, and it might be interesting if the developers could find a way to add that into the game. I think there's a way to do it, perhaps a way to add a level of integration of some worlds, with less integrated colonies having some amount of inequality and crime that goes down as integration goes up. Or maybe a core range radius that is dynamic and can grow depending on certain economic and/or travel dynamics, something like introducing an internal trade system that creates stronger ties to the core worlds, and thus spreading core UFoP philosophies or whatever.

Might be thinking of this scene? One of my favs

 

[Pattywinks]

Might be thinking of this scene? One of my favs

That's definitely one of them. There's also a line from Quark to Nog in the season 7 episode "The Siege of AR-558" that speaks to this as well. I'm sure there are other, smaller lines peppered throughout the series.

So good!

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

Perhaps the major reason I love DS9 and consider it the best Star Trek series is how it looked critically at everything, especially the Federation. I don't recall which episode it was, nor do I think it was necessarily just one, but there are references to how blind the Federation is to everything on the frontier and outside its borders because the core worlds, especially Earth, are essentially paradises. That insinuates some level of inequality at the outskirts, or even on some planets depending on the culture. We see this on both the world O'Brien was on while trying to infiltrate the Orion Syndicate, and the planet Ezri's family works on. Presumably, both planets are part of the Federation in some form, and money still exists, inequality still exists, crime still exists. Also, see the case of the Maquis in the DMZ. There's nuance there, and it might be interesting if the developers could find a way to add that into the game. I think there's a way to do it, perhaps a way to add a level of integration of some worlds, with less integrated colonies having some amount of inequality and crime that goes down as integration goes up. Or maybe a core range radius that is dynamic and can grow depending on certain economic and/or travel dynamics, something like introducing an internal trade system that creates stronger ties to the core worlds, and thus spreading core UFoP philosophies or whatever.

Just to be clear, neither ezri's family's world, nor the one that o'brian infiltrates, are federation worlds. There are independent worlds with even human populations, that refuse to join precisely cause they like/are controlled by money and syndicates.

I interpreted sisko's reference as being about war. And how abandoning the maquis was a cowardly act by people sitting in paradise while humans on the frontier get occupied by cardassia.

 

[Pattywinks]

Just to be clear, neither ezri's family's world, nor the one that o'brian infiltrates, are federation worlds. There are independent worlds with even human populations, that refuse to join precisely cause they like/are controlled by money and syndicates.

I interpreted sisko's reference as being about war. And how abandoning the maquis was a cowardly act by people sitting in paradise while humans on the frontier get occupied by cardassia.

The Ezri-O'Brien part makes way more sense. Although it begs the question of just what's going on with the politics of the galaxy. I got the sense that the Ezri family mine was technically part of Trill/UFoP-by-proxy, which may be the case. However, because it's on the frontier, there are supply and political issues that allow for the Orion Syndicate to gain some kind of foothold. Perhaps a kind of Wild West situation. Could be interesting if they incorporated such planets in the game at some point.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

on the plus side, i found a minor power with "utopian ideals" civic and snatched them up!

but unfortunately, the bonus "3rd civic" tech was a complete waste, because when i went to add a civic, it showed me at -5 my limit cause i had already eaten up 5 minor powers lol

i think your third civic should be given to you regardless of how many civics you have, just added. otherwise, it would mean you're supposed to wait till you get it before you integrate anyone. which would be no fun.

 

[Woifee]

Money, and inequality, in the federation. The tutorial lightly bends canon it feels, as does the living standard within the federation as far as I can tell so far. Commander Pelia (Chief Engineer Season 2), as early as Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, refers to the federation as "this moneyless socialist utopia thing" (real quote from the show). Picard emphatically underlines the lack of money, as does every show at least once, and most shows multiple times. DS9 extensively goes into it, and demonstrates clearly that the federation uses currency when exchanging with other species, but not internally. Gene Roddenberry was working under a censor to smuggle these politics in, so it's a real disappointment to see them seemingly completely airbrushed out, as I was looking to roleplaying a MORE equal earth than the UNE in Stellaris, not less.

Just a bit disappointing. Can someone tell me if there's some sort of society research that opens up an actual equal living standard later on for the federation? Or a tradition? Anything?

I can sort of accept, due to lower decks, that a bureaucratic layer is privileged in the federation, as part of the imperfections that still need to be fought against (all power to the Lower Decks! ). It seems odd to me that it would be a disparity of 200% the living standard of the next layer though.

I'm not the biggest Star Trek fan, just have seen all the shows several times, but haven't read any of the books and don't know how much of Canon they are, but As I understand it, Earth is paradise without money, but not the entire Federation. In DS9 Season 7 we visit the new Host of Dax visiting her Family who runs a Trill Drilling company wich obviously works in an ecnomic structure where Money matters. Also the Federation needs some kind of Money to interact with non Federation Entities, like the Ferengi.

 

[Calvax]

I'm not the biggest Star Trek fan, just have seen all the shows several times, but haven't read any of the books and don't know how much of Canon they are, but As I understand it, Earth is paradise without money, but not the entire Federation. In DS9 Season 7 we visit the new Host of Dax visiting her Family who runs a Trill Drilling company wich obviously works in an ecnomic structure where Money matters. Also the Federation needs some kind of Money to interact with non Federation Entities, like the Ferengi.

It's the whole Federation. That planet wasn't a federation member, it was an independent world that happened to have some Trill business owners on it. There's nothing stopping Federation citizens, or people whose species are members of the Federation, from engaging in commerce outside of it.

There's likely some unit of accountancy in the Federation that they use for trade (a Federation credit) but it's not used by the public for every day goods and services.

 

[Woifee]

It's the whole Federation. That planet wasn't a federation member, it was an independent world that happened to have some Trill business owners on it. There's nothing stopping Federation citizens, or people whose species are members of the Federation, from engaging in commerce outside of it.

There's likely some unit of accountancy in the Federation that they use for trade (a Federation credit) but it's not used by the public for every day goods and services.

Thanks.

But if I remember correctly in TOS the talk about currency in the Federation/Earth at least once. But the show was made during the Cold War with Red Scare going arround in the USA. So I assume there were put limitations on Genes vision.

 

[Calvax]

Thanks.

But if I remember correctly in TOS the talk about currency in the Federation/Earth at least once. But the show was made during the Cold War with Red Scare going arround in the USA. So I assume there were put limitations on Genes vision.

Star trek has never been 100% consistent so there's certainly contradictions. TOS conflicted with itself many times as they were making a lot of it up as they went. A good example of this is the year it was set. The writers had different ideas ranging from it being the 2160s to the 2960s. There are lines in different episodes stating that the 20th century was a couple of centuries away and others that indicate it's much greater. Hell at one point the Enterprise is described as belonging to the Earth exploratory group and not Starfleet.

Canon got firmer by the films and in the later shows. In Star Trek IV Kirk tells a woman from the 20th century that they don't use money in the future. Strange New Worlds, set 10 years before TOS, has a character flippantly describe the Federation as a moneyless socialist utopia.

You can still find oddities in episodes set around then or even later, like people talking about "buying a drink" or "setting a price" but at the end of the day it's hard to expect anything else with a franchise that spans hundreds of writers over decades. Lower Decks has poked fun of this before with characters pointing out no one has to pay for drinks so what does that offer even mean lol.

 

[Woifee]

Star trek has never been 100% consistent so there's certainly contradictions. TOS conflicted with itself many times as they were making a lot of it up as they went. A good example of this is the year it was set. The writers had different ideas ranging from it being the 2160s to the 2960s. There are lines in different episodes stating that the 20th century was a couple of centuries away and others that indicate it's much greater. Hell at one point the Enterprise is described as belonging to the Earth exploratory group and not Starfleet.

Canon got firmer by the films and in the later shows. In Star Trek IV Kirk tells a woman from the 20th century that they don't use money in the future. Strange New Worlds, set 10 years before TOS, has a character flippantly describe the Federation as a moneyless socialist utopia.

You can still find oddities in episodes set around then or even later, like people talking about "buying a drink" or "setting a price" but at the end of the day it's hard to expect anything else with a franchise that spans hundreds of writers over decades. Lower Decks has poked fun of this before with characters pointing out no one has to pay for drinks so what does that offer even mean lol.

Yeah, I get the consistancy Issues. I usually have no problem with that.

Just watched this for "Trekonomics"

 

[zeroantizero]

I never really believed the "no money" aspect of Star Trek, even when it was explicitly stated, especially since it was undermined time and time again.

Of course there's money and private industry, but there's a welfare system preventing any poverty and arguably people don't *have* to work. But those that do work get to keep the rewards of that work.

 

[KNakamura]

The only rule of thumb I'd use for this is to remember this from the TOS's writers guide:

"What is Earth like in STAR TREK'S CENTURY?
For one thing, we'll never take a story back there and therefore don't expect to get into subjects which would create great problems, technical and otherwise. The "U.S.S." on our ship designation stands for "United Space Ship" -- indicating (without troublesome specifics) that mankind has found some unity on Earth, perhaps at long last even peace. If you require a statement such as one that Earth cities of the future are splendidly planned with fifty-mile parkland strips around them, fine. But television today simply will not let us get into details of Earth's politics of STAR TREK,'S century; for example, which socio-economic system ultimately worked out best."

So the correct answer to "money" in the Federation is: Well, it's what the plot needs at the time.

 

[Pattywinks]

The only rule of thumb I'd use for this is to remember this from the TOS's writers guide:

"What is Earth like in STAR TREK'S CENTURY?
For one thing, we'll never take a story back there and therefore don't expect to get into subjects which would create great problems, technical and otherwise. The "U.S.S." on our ship designation stands for "United Space Ship" -- indicating (without troublesome specifics) that mankind has found some unity on Earth, perhaps at long last even peace. If you require a statement such as one that Earth cities of the future are splendidly planned with fifty-mile parkland strips around them, fine. But television today simply will not let us get into details of Earth's politics of STAR TREK,'S century; for example, which socio-economic system ultimately worked out best."

So the correct answer to "money" in the Federation is: Well, it's what the plot needs at the time.

Man, they really strayed from that piece of advice in later series, didn't they? lol

 

[KNakamura]

Man, they really strayed from that piece of advice in later series, didn't they? lol

They did, but consider that Gunsmoke, which TOS is based off of, would have a lot of problems in the late 80s, let alone now. What people want to watch changes, and by the time TNG and DS9 came out, we had a lot more socially aware things, which meant that writers wanted to write stories reflecting more deeply on society over the level TOS could provide.

But yeah, I always considered this a good idea to never really depict the political system of the Federation.

 

[tennmarine50]

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

Man, they really strayed from that piece of advice in later series, didn't they? lol

yes, roddenberry was able to come out of the closet and wave a red flag.

really weird that some fans of star trek pretend he wasn't writing for a censor at the time and then try to use the censorship to headcanon what he really wanted, moneylessness, out of the federation lol

 

[KNakamura]

yes, roddenberry was able to come out of the closet and wave a red flag.

really weird that some fans of star trek pretend he wasn't writing for a censor at the time and then try to use the censorship to headcanon what he really wanted, moneylessness, out of the federation lol

In this case, I post it primarily to state, flatly, that we don't know, and whether or not the Federation has money depends on the needs of the writer at the time. Roddenberry is much more on the no money side, but when we get to the writers of DS9, it's quite clear the Federation has some kind of currency, except when it doesn't, to PIC, which heavily implies a capitalist society in sections, and then doesn't in others.

I've read a lot of books and been in a lot of debates, and I suspect the real answer is that Trek's society is in the eyes of the beholder, and thus I posted the "let's not have a long argument over something that is usually completely irrelevant to the stories Trek wants to tell."

 

[DanielPrates]

Guys this is a wonderful conceptual conversation, but, the OP was talking about how Stellaris' 'standard of living' mechanic didnt resukt in good ST lore, and nobody is really addressing that.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

I'll trust Majel Barrett, his last wife, voice of the computer and face of lwaxana troy among other roles all the way back to TOS, when she told everyone he was hiding his red card lol

Anyways, the inconsistency comes from exchange with societies outside, or jokes, never see a federation citizen pay from TNG on, where he had full control, till contact with another society requires it. Energy economics is an entirely different thing when you can replicate everything and you aren't worried about the end of profits.

And yes, i don't see why the federation has 200% wealth disparity lol