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Monetary wealth and the general economics of capitalism in the UFP is a weird concept and anathema to its general philosophy of personal growth. As I posted earlier, the UFP is a post-scarcity society where all the necessities and other "luxury" items are readily available and thus without much monetary value (how much do you think a TV would cost if all you needed to do was replicate one?). Things don't have any monetary value because they are so easy to obtain, and thus their value as symbols of wealth, influence, and status is practically nil. Instead, things have personal value that can't really transfer. And in a post-scarcity society, money has no value because the things you would potentially spend that money on has no value. This is especially true when you factor automation into the general resource economy. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to have wealth as a measure in the game for the UFP. There may be something to it as a matter of resource scarcity on some frontier worlds, or independent colonies outside the UFP. The Orion Syndicate would probably use economics and wealth as a form of control, while the Cardassian use might take the form of social control and structure, as well as for raw political power. But such things I'd imagine are aspects of one's cultural values (i.e. the Ferengi).

That said, it would have to be replaced with something else that would effect the UFP. Happiness, perhaps, although that seems pretty close to unity. But if one's culture has low happiness, their unity would suffer as a result. Wealth could be useful for the Cardassians (their society is pretty stratified between haves and have-nots), the Ferengi (those capitalist rascals!), and perhaps the Romulans. It strikes me that Klingons might be in the same boat as the Federation, but just because they are all about glory and honor (there is no honor in accounting, after all). Wealth could be replaced with glory and/or honor, which comes through conquest of one's foes (or the hunting of targ and saber bear). Insufficient glory and honor, and you have insufficient unity, which leads to a civil war between the great houses.
 
The Federation does use money. There's gold-pressed latium, quatloo's, credits, it just doesn't cost anything for basic goods like replicated food because it's incredibly abundant. Buying something like a planet, however, would cost a lot of money
 
The Federation does use money. There's gold-pressed latium, quatloo's, credits, it just doesn't cost anything for basic goods like replicated food because it's incredibly abundant. Buying something like a planet, however, would cost a lot of money

Nope! The Ferengi do that. I'd imagine buying a planet, moon, or even an asteroid would be illegal in a UFP that doesn't allow for the large accumulation of property beyond one's needs and intended use (ain't no Jeff Bezos's in the Federation!).
 
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The Federation doesn't forbid the accumulation of property

It does not, at least up to a point. Again, ain't no Jeff Bezos's in the Federation. Sure, Picard has his chateau, but that's been in the family for generations and is being put to use. Based on what we've seen, I think it likely that the UFP follows socialist/Marxist philosophy and forbids the mass accumulation of property beyond one's needs or intended social uses. In all likelihood, there would be no need to accumulate a ton of property since it would have no monetary value and provide no social status bonus since everyone has everything they need. Property isn't seen as a way to profit the way it is in our fucked-up system, but as a means to live and contribute to the larger community and society.
 
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Actually, I seem to recall Quark whining to Dax and/or others about fleecing him of latinum because they don't even use it in the UFP. And when Riker needed information from Quark, he brides Quark with some of the Latinum he won several months earlier, which means he never spent it because he didn't have to (and you KNOW Riker would have a lot to spend latinum on if he needed it!)
 
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Yes, the writing on SNW is terrible and one flippant remark a Federation does not make
Ok then how about a dozen

Discovery, after the fall. The federation turns down Emerald Chain membership because they insist on keeping their ways which they point blank call capitalism.

Sisko DS9, reminds quark that (since the federation does not use money) they have not charged him ANY RENT in YEARS. And, while Rom quotes the communist manifesto in his strike, sisko threatens to charge Quark back rent if he does not agree to the strike's demands. Then he forgives the rent because, again, the federation does not use money.

And so, so many more examples. Like mariner telling riker "we don't use money, what's wrong with you?"

It's really only by intentionally deleting all these references from your mind that anyone can pretend there's any ambiguity lol
 
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Ok then how about a dozen

Discovery, after the fall. The federation turns down Emerald Chain membership because they insist on keeping their ways which they point blank call capitalism.

Sisko DS9, reminds quark that (since the federation does not use money) they have not charged him ANY RENT in YEARS. And, while Rom quotes the communist manifesto in his strike, sisko threatens to charge Quark back rent if he does not agree to the strike's demands. Then he forgives the rent because, again, the federation does not use money.

And so, so many more examples. Like mariner telling riker "we don't use money, what's wrong with you?"

It's really only by intentionally deleting all these references from your mind that anyone can pretend there's any ambiguity lol
It funny how people need to relay on the awful writing of NuTrek to justify calling the Federation socialist while ignoring that Quark had a private business that was supposed to be paying rent at all, Bones tried hiring a smuggler WITH MONEY in The Search For Spock, and the open exchange of currency within the Federation to begin with. You're intentionally deleting everything that doesn't align with your world view
 
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It funny how people need to relay on the awful writing of NuTrek to justify calling the Federation socialist while ignoring that Quark had a private business that was supposed to be paying rent at all, Bones tried hiring a smuggler WITH MONEY in The Search For Spock, and the open exchange of currency within the Federation to begin with. You're intentionally deleting everything that doesn't align with your world view


Pakled.jpg
 
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Ehm, just a reminder that the forum is to talk about the game, not about RL politics.

Please remain inside the game's context as much as possible. If you wanna discuss RL politics so much, go to our OT Forum.

Posts deleted/infractions given.
 
Ok then how about a dozen

Discovery, after the fall. The federation turns down Emerald Chain membership because they insist on keeping their ways which they point blank call capitalism.

Sisko DS9, reminds quark that (since the federation does not use money) they have not charged him ANY RENT in YEARS. And, while Rom quotes the communist manifesto in his strike, sisko threatens to charge Quark back rent if he does not agree to the strike's demands. Then he forgives the rent because, again, the federation does not use money.

And so, so many more examples. Like mariner telling riker "we don't use money, what's wrong with you?"

It's really only by intentionally deleting all these references from your mind that anyone can pretend there's any ambiguity lol

Let me start inserting references:

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

While Vulcan was well-known to be a founding member of the Federation, non-affiliated Vulcans who practiced mercantile trade were common. In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", VOY: "The Gift")

When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint") (pointsto at least external currency)

In 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?") - should be noted that Bolians are a member of the Federation

I could keep c+ping Memory Alpha, but I want to note that: there are multiple references to at least currency or barter transactions in TOS movies. Roddenberry didn't like money, Moore did (cf the same memory-alpha article.)

TL;DR: There's just as much indirect references to money as there is to money, so it's an open question. Also: there is absolutely wealth disparity in the Federation, we just never encounter it.

CF: The DMZ vs Earth.

It's a logical enough thing.
 
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Let me start inserting references:

The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")

While Vulcan was well-known to be a founding member of the Federation, non-affiliated Vulcans who practiced mercantile trade were common. In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", VOY: "The Gift")

When Quark rescued Gaila from a Federation starbase after he was arrested on Thalos VI, he had to pay a fine before he could be released. (DS9: "The Magnificent Ferengi")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint") (pointsto at least external currency)

In 2366, Jean-Luc Picard purchased a Horga'hn on Risa. (TNG: "Captain's Holiday")

As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?") - should be noted that Bolians are a member of the Federation

I could keep c+ping Memory Alpha, but I want to note that: there are multiple references to at least currency or barter transactions in TOS movies. Roddenberry didn't like money, Moore did (cf the same memory-alpha article.)

TL;DR: There's just as much indirect references to money as there is to money, so it's an open question. Also: there is absolutely wealth disparity in the Federation, we just never encounter it.

CF: The DMZ vs Earth.

It's a logical enough thing.

Nice. This is a good example of the inconsistencies in Star Trek across the board. Also reminds me of a great article on the pitfalls of canon. Because canon is an abyss.

 
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Nice. This is a good example of the inconsistencies in Star Trek across the board. Also reminds me of a great article on the pitfalls of canon. Because canon is an abyss.


Interesting article. In this case it's a simple mix of:

1. Needs to be familiar to its audience, it's why FedStandard sounds like English.
2. No one author or committee manages the canon of the franchise.
3. Thinking through first order implications is hard, thank you.
4. The needs of the plot outweigh the needs of the worldbuilding.
 
It funny how people need to relay on the awful writing of NuTrek to justify calling the Federation socialist while ignoring that Quark had a private business that was supposed to be paying rent at all, Bones tried hiring a smuggler WITH MONEY in The Search For Spock, and the open exchange of currency within the Federation to begin with. You're intentionally deleting everything that doesn't align with your world view
Terrible Writing or not, STD and STSNW (by the way excellently writen and awesome show) are canon therefore it matters.

Quark was a Ferengi on a Bajoran Station run by the Federation. Not sure how this makes the case Federation still uses currency. For instance when Jake wants tu buy a Baseball card in an Auction he has no money, because he is a federation citizen. When he "sold" his first book he did not get any money from it he told Quark.

Yes, the first time Federation does not have Money comes up in the Movies Star Trek 4, more as a joke, but it is carried on by STTNG. So yes, in TOS there might be cases where they use money. So you might say, Star Trek 4 retconned the Star Trek universe. And this happens, all the fudging time.

So what to make out of it? The Federation probably don't use money in domestic areas, they propably have something when dealing with foreign political entities and foreign Merchants. Maybe give Star Fleet personal some if they are stationed outside of the Federation or are on long trips far away of the federation in dealing with local planets and stuff.


Wealth disparency propably is still a thing tough. In STPicarde Season 1 we see Picarde in his family Château while Ruffi lives in a Hut in the desert.
 
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I thought the Stellaris abstraction of 'stuff is being paid for with energy credit' works well for the Federation. Post scarcity or not, they still need energy to run things. Maybe it is post scarcity at an individual level where goods are abundand, and a person wants for nothing, but I imagine that at galactic scales under which the player operates, they still have to take into account the demands of energy to run things, as well as have SOME way to track accounting, energy allocation, or goods distribution on a multiplanetary scale.

I mean, you can't just replicate endless warships, no matter how post-scarce you are. And the Federation was in multiple tight spots during the Dominion war, implying that some measure of resource allocation and prioritization had to take place.

Maybe instead of energy credits you can instead think of them as 'energy batteries' that are traded and allocated based on politics and demand of realpolitik.
 
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I thought the Stellaris abstraction of 'stuff is being paid for with energy credit' works well for the Federation. Post scarcity or not, they still need energy to run things. Maybe it is post scarcity at an individual level where goods are abundand, and a person wants for nothing, but I imagine that at galactic scales under which the player operates, they still have to take into account the demands of energy to run things, as well as have SOME way to track accounting, energy allocation, or goods distribution on a multiplanetary scale.

I mean, you can't just replicate endless warships, no matter how post-scarce you are. And the Federation was in multiple tight spots during the Dominion war, implying that some measure of resource allocation and prioritization had to take place.

Maybe instead of energy credits you can instead think of them as 'energy batteries' that are traded and allocated based on politics and demand of realpolitik.

What puzzled me about the Dominion war was not the federations production capacities in term of ships but how they get the manpower. Did the Federation set up a conscription law? Not very Star Fleety considering people go there on their free will do discover new life and get screwed by Q.

So did Star Fleet start a Porpaganda campaign to recruit Sodiers for their meat grinder?

And also, did all the Ships still have Families and Kindergarten on the ships?

This also bothers me all the time they have to engage a single Borg Cube that enters Federation Space and they call up the closest Ships to engage it. So they fly school into the battlefield. Nice.


To be fair, this issues never stoped my enjoment of the shows, just fun littel thoughts ;)
 
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The main problem here is that you never really see how Federation citizens live. The shows are concerned with Starfleet people almost exclusively. Those are military personnel. They wouldn't be using money even if the Federation citizens regularly did. An officer in Starfleet can presumably just use any Starfleet resources for free, as long as it's part of their mandate.

Rodenberry never really addressed the details of the Federation moneyless utopia. They couldn't show Earth or other planets like that in TOS due to budget reasons. The TNG episodes where people are on holiday (like on Risa) come closest to this. DS9 is in a special place because it's somewhat of an ad-hoc Starfleet operation and needs to deal with non-Federation realities constantly. But they also never really show us how money works on Bajor or in the Cardassian Union. Or how the restaurant of Sisko's dad works in a world without money or need to have restaurants. He presumably runs it because he likes running a restaurant but do all of the waiters just work there because waiting is their main goal in life? Doubtful.

The original shows up to ENT pretty much ignored this whole issue and glossed over it. I feel this is because this idea mostly doesn't work in practice. First of all, a socialist utopia even in its most thought-out forms has many issues that you'd have to deal with. And secondly, the Federation just doesn't behave very socialist. There's no state control of the economy evident and there seem to be private enterprises still in existence. People are completely free to do what they want. While Engels would probably have described this as a socialist paradise, it's easy to see where massive issues with this come in when you start thinking it through and start writing stories using this premise. So the writers mostly ignored this.

Granted, the newer shows like STD and PIC address some of this, but I never found it convincing. Those writers made so many obvious logical errors all over the place, I don't trust them to be able to handle complex socio-economic issues like "how does a world without money even function?" They don't even understand how big a turbolift tube is or how warp works.
Good point. Even when I was a kid watching TNG I wondered why anyone would work if they weren’t compensated for it. The whole people doing it for the greater good of mankind doesn’t make sense. Sure the military, politicians and even scientists who have fulfilling and prestigious jobs might do it but the guy waiting tables, bartending or mining probably wouldn’t want to do it.

I also believe “credits” were mentioned in a TNG episode which I always took as a form of currency. I guess when the idea doesn’t really work the logic behind it has to be bent to fit.
 
I thought the Stellaris abstraction of 'stuff is being paid for with energy credit' works well for the Federation. Post scarcity or not, they still need energy to run things. Maybe it is post scarcity at an individual level where goods are abundand, and a person wants for nothing, but I imagine that at galactic scales under which the player operates, they still have to take into account the demands of energy to run things, as well as have SOME way to track accounting, energy allocation, or goods distribution on a multiplanetary scale.
my issue with the tutorial is that the law of supply and demand does not actually apply in energy economics, like replicating minerals would take a certain amount of energy and it will take the same amount the second time, so a fixed cost not a floating price. but i can headcanon that it is the galactic trade market so whatever. the tutorial comment is not important.

but as you said, for the everyday citizen they do not concern themselves with energy planning for their consumption, it is free. so when representing the living standards of the federation, it averages out to equal for all, or should. even if it's a nerf, for canon purposes it should be 1:1:1 instead of 1:0.5:0.5 which is literally a 200% wealth inequality gap lol. like that's pretty far from a "moneyless socialist utopia thing"

So did Star Fleet start a Porpaganda campaign to recruit Sodiers for their meat grinder?
the propaganda campaign is living in a moneyless utopia. pretty easy to drum up support for that.
Quark was a Ferengi on a Bajoran Station run by the Federation. Not sure how this makes the case Federation still uses currency. For instance when Jake wants tu buy a Baseball card in an Auction he has no money, because he is a federation citizen. When he "sold" his first book he did not get any money from it he told Quark.
yeah, it's funny people keep bringing up DS9 when it is the hardest proof there is no money. not only does the federation have no money, but it wields not having money as a big economic club and smashes plates in every shop they walk into that does have money lol.

bajor still has money. ds9 is bajoran territory. recently liberated bajor invited the federation to run DS9 for them as they consider membership. federation does wacky wormhole stuff with it and sparks a war. but also, federation opens a free replomat on the promenade, because their staff will eat and so will anyone who's hungry. and their staff goes and gambles and gets latinum to spend at quark's. quark is competing with free replicators on the station so he has to spruce things up

but quark does not pay rent, and then is threatened with rent and backpay on rent if he does not raise wages for the union.
The Human philanthropist Carter Winston acquired a vast personal fortune during the late 23rd century. (TAS: "The Survivor")
just cause you can't earn federation money cause there is no federation money, doesn't mean you can't earn money outside the federation or on the black market
While Vulcan was well-known to be a founding member of the Federation, non-affiliated Vulcans who practiced mercantile trade were common. In 2368, a Vulcan master doubled the price of a meditation lamp upon learning that Tuvok and Kathryn Janeway were Starfleet officers. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", VOY: "The Gift")
same as above but thank you for actually engaging, this is good stuff and you did your research
In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth at Farpoint Station and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint") (pointsto at least external currency)
completely agree on external currency. the federation will trade in bulk for local currency using replicated goods and allow staff to charge to that account, pretty cool and i wanna live like that lol

As of the 24th century, the Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX had a market economy that fluctuated in value. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?") - should be noted that Bolians are a member of the Federation
ok this is one i will need to watch out for the next DS9 rewatch, thanks for actually making arguments though. for game purposes with fluctuating prices it's fine i suppose. i did also wonder while roleplaying the federation in stellaris, if a society without money would still want to be the galactic market and impose themselves on the galactic capitalists lol. so for bolias i'm fine with that (will rewatch), and for the market fluctuating i'm fine too i guess since you said that's what it says too. but that still leaves the 1:0.5:0.5 I don't find that part fits at all
 
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