Great game, but big elephant in the room kind of dampens the mood

[Pattywinks]

One thing I've been thinking about: the Federation is a collection of other societies that share certain values (freedom, equality, equity, egalitarianism, whatever). They largely run their own planets, have their own governments, and the UFP acts as a kind of more centralized version of the United Nations. The UFP central government handles trade and security, and sets rules and regulations that members have to abide by, but members largely govern themselves. That's why members of the Federation Council are ambassadors. As long as members follow the Federation Constitution, everything if fine and they can govern themselves as they see fit.

Under these circumstances, it makes sense that their would be some kind of basic currency for certain items depending on the planet. I can also see circumstances where dealing with non-Federation entities (governments, independent colonies, etc.) would require being part of an interstellar monetary system, hence gold-pressed latinum. The Federation doesn't use money, but individual members may to a limited extent, and there is some kind of interstellar exchange. That kind of solves the issue.

 

[whosthebestcop]

What DS9 tried to allude to was that there was no need for money on Earth. Earth was the jewel of the Federation and complete paradise. It is mentioned several times that Earth basically becomes the perfect planet. But Earth and Humans are also vast colonizers because its in their nature to get bored with Paradise.

The Federation around the time of TNG era is 150_ members with like 1000-2000 worlds. Picard is really the only series that showed us :living conditions" on planets outside the Federation for an expanded time.

I know RDM (Ronald D Moore) had stated when he started on TNG and Gene was in power Genes rule was no money on Earth and none in the Federation. I think by the end of DS9 and maybe even continued in Lower Decks its more like there is some kind of currency in the Federation. But Humans mostly or any inhabitants of Earth's systems just have no direct need for any sort of currency.

Jake does gamble at DaBo and Dom Jat. So he does have some kind of currency. Its most likely he just has spending cash and not a savings which is why he needed Nog's life savings to buy the Willie Mays baseball card. Which brings us to RDM writing the episode and poking fun at himself since he wrote those lines in First Contact.

Even though we hear a ton about the Maquis we have no idea how the worlds actually functioned. They always were in pseudo Federation space and then fully given to the bloody Cardies. However remember the Vulcan Maquis buys a substantial weapons list through Quarks intermediary. So they had to have a ton of currency to do that.

The other episode where Quark has a rival who is the same race as Quinan we actual get to hear about several other known currencies besides latinum.

all in all its a confusing mess.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

all in all its a confusing mess.

Confusing cause roddenberry was working with mccarthyists who were actively undermining him, as you yourself admit. Not confusing if you don't collaborate with them. At no point does DS9 establish money outside earth. It establishes ALIEN money, and humans using it "when in rome" and they must do as the aliens do.

The only show that established that there is some capitalism was discovery, and that was literally used to show there is no capitalism. It's after the dilithium crisis and the fall, and the emerald chain tells the fed they have to admit the outer colonies have been alone for a long time and have drifted to using money and trading with the chain.

This directly implies this is not how things were before the fall. It also directly says: emerald chain capitalist, federation not.

 

[Pattywinks]

Confusing cause roddenberry was working with mccarthyists who were actively undermining him, as you yourself admit. Not confusing if you don't collaborate with them. At no point does DS9 establish money outside earth. It establishes ALIEN money, and humans using it "when in rome" and they must do as the aliens do.

The only show that established that there is some capitalism was discovery, and that was literally used to show there is no capitalism. It's after the dilithium crisis and the fall, and the emerald chain tells the fed they have to admit the outer colonies have been alone for a long time and have drifted to using money and trading with the chain.

This directly implies this is not how things were before the fall. It also directly says: emerald chain capitalist, federation not.

I think it depends on a planet's/colony's strength of connection with the Federation. It makes sense that there would be a market for things like weapons that are sanctioned by UFP laws. It even makes sense that there would be a market for certain other relatively scarce resources depending on a planet's situation. But in the UFP proper, scarcity isn't a thing (replicators can produce anything, even the latest 1000-inch 80k Samsung TV). I highly doubt the UFP would allow for food and housing scarcity, and the inequality that ensues, on any of their member worlds. One of the advantages of being a UFP member is that you would no longer need to worry about inequality and poverty. This doesn't rule out the use of some form of currency or credit system on other planets, something that could very well be cultural. In fact, in the DS9 episode "Homefront," it's mentioned that Sisko went home for dinner every night during his first week or two at the Academy, and Sisko Sr says Ben must have used a months worth of transporter credits in that one week. So there is some kind of credit system, and I'd be willing to bet that those credits are, just as in the game, ENERGY credits.

Everything in the UFP runs on energy. This is especially true for replicators, which transform energy into matter (space alchemy). Since everything requires energy, it could be the one and only truly scarce resource. But, again, the level of energy scarcity probably depends on a planet's/colony's connection with the UFP, availability of parts and fuel for energy production, and the ability to tap into a planet's natural energy resources. There are a few references in DS9 that mention the loaning of replicators to others that implies a scarcity of replicators, but it could be an issue of energy production to USE replicators that limits the number that can be installed/used on a planet/colony.

This, of course, is all conjecture because we only have short, off-hand remarks on the inner-workings of the UFP economic system. It's possible that there is an economic system in place that doesn't really fit into capitalism or socialism. It could very well be a spectrum, with a planet/colony fitting somewhere on that spectrum between pure capitalism and pure socialism. We know where the (old?) Ferengi fit on that spectrum (at least for now since they just became Federation members!), and we know where Earth (and Vulcan) can be placed. I think that economic spectrum is a useful way of looking at things.

 

[Pelianist-Picardist]

In fact, in the DS9 episode "Homefront," it's mentioned that Sisko went home for dinner every night during his first week or two at the Academy, and Sisko Sr says Ben must have used a months worth of transporter credits in that one week.

I think energy credits are a ration card. And they are used either when absolutely cut off (like voyager clearly has energy rations in its worst times), or when dealing with extremely energy consuming services that are open to abuse. Like transporting between cities on earth.

As for the question of capitalism and socialism, I don't think we need worry about purity. It is a transitional society, that is where all the contradictions can be explained from, and that's fine.

But it is socialist because a. Pellia straight up said so and b. Well it's moneylessness. It's also not capitalist befause ferenginar and the emerald chain are there to say it's not, by process of elimination.

With feringinar that's just from seeing with our eyes that capitalism is different from the UFP.

With the emerald chain, they literally use the C word, the capitalism word, for the first time. And what they do is make fun of the Federation. They essentially say you claim to be not capitalist but your outer colonies have lost touch with you and returned to capitalism. This making fun of them implies it's a huge insult/very sore point. It cannot be so if there was any in-universe ambiguity about what principles they have.

 

[Pattywinks]

I think energy credits are a ration card. And they are used either when absolutely cut off (like voyager clearly has energy rations in its worst times), or when dealing with extremely energy consuming services that are open to abuse. Like transporting between cities on earth.

As for the question of capitalism and socialism, I don't think we need worry about purity. It is a transitional society, that is where all the contradictions can be explained from, and that's fine.

But it is socialist because a. Pellia straight up said so and b. Well it's moneylessness. It's also not capitalist befause ferenginar and the emerald chain are there to say it's not, by process of elimination.

With feringinar that's just from seeing with our eyes that capitalism is different from the UFP.

With the emerald chain, they literally use the C word, the capitalism word, for the first time. And what they do is make fun of the Federation. They essentially say you claim to be not capitalist but your outer colonies have lost touch with you and returned to capitalism. This making fun of them implies it's a huge insult/very sore point. It cannot be so if there was any in-universe ambiguity about what principles they have.

In regard to energy credits, that's exactly how I was envisioning it. Replicators and transporters are huge energy sucks because they are transforming matter into energy and back again, so it makes sense that it is rationed out depending on how much energy is available (or maybe they have a standard rationing system that applies UFP-wide). Energy as the in-game currency equivalent has gotten some pushback from some players, but I think it makes sense.

In regard to capitalism, that's why I like the idea of an economic spectrum that civilizations/states can be placed on. You're right that the UFP is unquestionably socialist, but I can see a situation where that UFP-wide socialism doesn't fully apply to its smaller constituents, at least in the beginning. I think Ferenginar is a good example of this since they are now Federation members (Lower Decks, season 4, ep. 6). How does their capitalism fit into the UFP's socialism? It doesn't to some extent, but that doesn't necessarily matter 1) as long as they fulfill the general requirements for membership, and 2) because the UFP doesn't get involved in local political and cultural issues unless there's a violation of the terms of membership or a request for assistance (somewhat similar to federalism in the United States). But what is the effect of the UFP on its individual members? The UFP's laws, internal economy, and general culture would undoubtedly have an effect on its individual members, molding them over time into societies that more closely resemble a UFP ideal or baseline. So Ferenginar might retain its capitalism as a pure cultural act, but with little to no meaning in real economic relations within and outside the UFP. Interesting to consider.

As for the Emerald Chain and the UFP's outer colonies lapsing into a capitalist system, that makes sense since without the UFP certain resources might become scarce. And the Emerald Chain clearly controls access to necessary resources and is thus able to impose their version of capitalism on those colonies.

And, no, we don't need to worry about purity, if only because there is no such thing. Purity is the enemy.