Hardcore players deserve one hardcore game

[Leivve]

No game is hardcore once you get a hang of it at least not against ai...only exception is chess but its much simpler mechanic wise so i guess casual?!

Honestly that's a selling point. A player will be fully confused on what is going on, but once they get their head wrapped around everything, it all makes sense. That's a very satisfying feeling for players, and gives them a feeling of mastery; that something that they couldn't figure out before, now makes them question how they couldn't figure it out before.

 

[Eldoran]

Honestly that's a selling point. A player will be fully confused on what is going on, but once they get their head wrapped around everything, it all makes sense. That's a very satisfying feeling for players, and gives them a feeling of mastery; that something that they couldn't figure out before, now makes them question how they couldn't figure it out before.

Yeah absolutly and pds manages to deliver that still. So where exactly is it dumbed down or casual?
Thats my point

 

[Ixal]

Yeah absolutly and pds manages to deliver that still. So where exactly is it dumbed down or casual?
Thats my point

What people mostly mean is I think is that the games become more and more easy.
Lets look at old EU4 for a moment when buildings still did cost MP.

People could not or at least would not get manfactories + workshops everywhere. That meant you had less money and couldnt afford high level advisor as readily (lvl 4 and 5 advisors didnt even exist). There were also no estates to milk for MP.
And with less money you also needed to watch your manpower as you couldnt simply hire entire merc armies and attrition wasnt capped also.

Compared to that all resources which were limiting in the past are rather plentiful now. And with every patch its get worse as new bonuses without downside gets added.

And this trend that the game gets more and more easy is what people mean when they say EU4 becomes casual.

What PDX would need to do is to completely rebalance the game to adapt to the number of bonuses there are. But they wont because it would be a lot if work and because PDX does not like to nerf anything because they fear how the players will react. Instead they keep them happy by pileing ever more bonuses on them. That works for a vocal part of the gamers who are only concerned about conquering stuff as fast as possible without challenge, but others do not like it and it is only a matter of time till they leave (I went from preordering all DLC to not buying them until there are nerfs).

 

[Eldoran]

What people mostly mean is I think is that the games become more and more easy.
Lets look at old EU4 for a moment when buildings still did cost MP.

People could not or at least would not get manfactories + workshops everywhere. That meant you had less money and couldnt afford high level advisor as readily (lvl 4 and 5 advisors didnt even exist). There were also no estates to milk for MP.
And with less money you also needed to watch your manpower as you couldnt simply hire entire merc armies and attrition wasnt capped also.

Compared to that all resources which were limiting in the past are rather plentiful now. And with every patch its get worse as new bonuses without downside gets added.

And this trend that the game gets more and more easy is what people mean when they say EU4 becomes casual.

What PDX would need to do is to completely rebalance the game to adapt to the number of bonuses there are. But they wont because it would be a lot if work and because PDX does not like to nerf anything because they fear how the players will react. Instead they keep them happy by pileing ever more bonuses on them. That works for a vocal part of the gamers who are only concerned about conquering stuff as fast as possible without challenge, but others do not like it and it is only a matter of time till they leave (I went from preordering all DLC to not buying them until there are nerfs).

Well i am at a baltic crusader run and have 1000h playtime but its still far from easy to achieve my goal...i am at my phone and tired so i have no intention at considering every point or example you give, bit while it is true that there are new bonusses there are also downsides to them. Estates raise your autonomy and give debuffs if it goes south. Is it pdrfect system. No but its okay. Lvl 5 advisors are pretty lategame cause expensive at this point i there isnt anything to do than painting the map anyways and the mp gain makes it less ridicilous so its ok and doesnt really make things a lot easier...so i dont agree with your narrative. And i cant see how someone with 400h or more could agree with it, but these people bombard the steamreview with their stupid comments.

Well and if you do not like the way pds is going. Rollback your gameversion install mods ord do whatever. You wont find games and publishers that endorse their playerbase and playerbase created contend more than pdx

 

[Ixal]

Well i am at a baltic crusader run and have 1000h playtime but its still far from easy to achieve my goal...i am at my phone and tired so i have no intention at considering every point or example you give, bit while it is true that there are new bonusses there are also downsides to them. Estates raise your autonomy and give debuffs if it goes south. Is it pdrfect system. No but its okay. Lvl 5 advisors are pretty lategame cause expensive at this point i there isnt anything to do than painting the map anyways and the mp gain makes it less ridicilous so its ok and doesnt really make things a lot easier...so i dont agree with your narrative. And i cant see how someone with 400h or more could agree with it, but these people bombard the steamreview with their stupid comments.

Well and if you do not like the way pds is going. Rollback your gameversion install mods ord do whatever. You wont find games and publishers that endorse their playerbase and playerbase created contend more than pdx

You are overestimating the downsides of estates and what little tradeoff they have will get removed with Dharma.
And lvl 4-5 Advisors are not that late game. Maybe having a full set of them but getting a lvl 4 ADM is can be done early if deemed neccessary, especially with a 50% cost advisor you can get.

No the game is vastly more easy than before because nearly all mechanics PDX adds do not have a downside or tradeoff and are just buffs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In hardcore games as I understand them, the outcome is very much tied to what the player does, but they are difficult.

OP seems to have some confusion between challenge and skill equalization.

It might be useful to define what "hardcore" really means in advance so it's not a fiesta of arguments off differing definitions.

 

[Eldoran]

You are overestimating the downsides of estates and what little tradeoff they have will get removed with Dharma.
And lvl 4-5 Advisors are not that late game. Maybe having a full set of them but getting a lvl 4 ADM is can be done early if deemed neccessary, especially with a 50% cost advisor you can get.

No the game is vastly more easy than before because nearly all mechanics PDX adds do not have a downside or tradeoff and are just buffs.

Well maybe they are just buffs but i for myself still struggle wit achievement like baltic crusader. I now have over 1200 playhours but its still not trivial to accomplish for me...and while i may not be the most skillful player i am sure many others arent too. Just because you managed to reach a skill level where eu4 becomes trivial doesnt mean it is...

Kasparov will beat most of us in no time thart doesnt mean chess is a casual game

 

[Etrutian]

I would argue that EU4 is more challenging than EU3 by an extreme measure. The restrictions on expansion and vassalage make steam rolling a nightmare. Technology is also a lot flatter and less abusable than EU3.

EU3 I could reliably start as Holland/Friesland and beat the french by 1505. Abusing BB was also extremely easy. Securing all major trade was a breeze.

EU4 forces a bit more forthought on expansion (particularly in Europe). There is an effective cap on Vassals, which reduces abuse heavily. Technology can't be chased as easily, and the short period of time between muskets and swords is no longer abusable.


Stellaris though, yeah. Its a soft, but fun, game. CK2 is unfortunately beyond my ability, so much going on that when I try to start it up, I eventually give up.



Its also fairly amusing that on a forum of a developer that could be considered the modern 'spreadsheet king', there are concerns about casualization. Of the Clausewitz games, I only know a handful of people from my everday life that could even begin to pick up say EU4 or CK2.

 

[kentun]

I’m total noobs (more than 10 failed WC) with1700 hours EU4, do I need 300 more hours to claim myself hardcore?

By the way, what games are hardcore?

I feel like hardcore is like a Pro in any game that has no professional competition.

 

[NakedBeast]

I am for making games with realistic design that is at the same time strategically deep. I can see little meaning in "Hardcore" as OP described it.
I'd agree that new games and dlc are less deep then before sometimes. Case in point is Stellaris that lacks core 4x feutures like espionage, peaceful merging of empires, trading of technologies, star systems, planets, population (profitable slave trade eh?). Right now MOO2 is better space strategy game then Stellaris. I know it's a pretty hard standart to get to because MOO2 can be considered best space strategy still. There is also need of more atmosferic factions and unique faction mechanics. Endless space 2 is a good example how it could improve the game (or indeed save it). MOO2 has epic races as well. Stellaris tries to emulate everything with it's ethic system and fails it.

 

[Admiral_Obvious]

I'm going to throw in one of my most recent mods I've played with HOI4, and see if you think the mod makes the game "hardcore" or just excessively complicated.

Black Ice.

It's a mod which aims to keep the game historical, but adds significantly more "stuff". Such as making multiple types of infantry. Your standard units, garrisons, special units (ex, the SS), and a variety of other things. Each of them need seperate types of specialized equipment, including different shirts.

Does that sound like the Ops target of "hardcore" or is that just needless complication?

Consider in the base game. You make guns and train the men. In BI you need at minimum 7 seperate production lines to make a single basic infantry squad in most cases, and research requires that you keep your units up to date with the new required items.

Then, tank divisions are built using SPECIFIC tank models. So, you have Panzer 3, and then Panzer 4. The tanks aren't obfuscated together under the generic "meduim", but instead different entire productions which have different characteristics. Then, you have to maintain each piece of specific equipment for those tanks. You need to build armor variant radios, handheld radios, and mechanized radios, as well as HQ equipment to simulate long distance comms and encryption.

Is this hardcore or no?

 

[NaiveCarto]

Well Done!
You successfully persuade most players of PDX feel bad about "hardcore players".
though I agree with you in most aspects.

 

[Eldoran]

I'm going to throw in one of my most recent mods I've played with HOI4, and see if you think the mod makes the game "hardcore" or just excessively complicated.

Black Ice.

It's a mod which aims to keep the game historical, but adds significantly more "stuff". Such as making multiple types of infantry. Your standard units, garrisons, special units (ex, the SS), and a variety of other things. Each of them need seperate types of specialized equipment, including different shirts.

Does that sound like the Ops target of "hardcore" or is that just needless complication?

Consider in the base game. You make guns and train the men. In BI you need at minimum 7 seperate production lines to make a single basic infantry squad in most cases, and research requires that you keep your units up to date with the new required items.

Then, tank divisions are built using SPECIFIC tank models. So, you have Panzer 3, and then Panzer 4. The tanks aren't obfuscated together under the generic "meduim", but instead different entire productions which have different characteristics. Then, you have to maintain each piece of specific equipment for those tanks. You need to build armor variant radios, handheld radios, and mechanized radios, as well as HQ equipment to simulate long distance comms and encryption.

Is this hardcore or no?

Sounds horrivle but i guess it begins with h too.
I mean for a mod its great same with meiou in eu4 but for base game i would consider it bad design cause. Its the same with dwarf fortress. A great game with much fun but horrible design XD

So yeah its definitivly hardcore but also tedious...i often prefer the opposite

 

[FOARP]

The only thing that made the old games more "hardcore" is that their bad UI, lack of tooltips, massive micromanagement and bugs made sure 9 / 10 players that wanted to play them gave up trying...

The PDX games of today are just as complex and deep ( if not even more ), the difference is that closer to 9 / 10 players that want to play them also can do it since they are more approachable ( players can understand enough of the games basics to get hooked ).

There are some mechanics in for example HoI4 that only ~10 or so out of 1 million players that bought the game actually understand and can fully explain. That's pretty damn hardcore to me..

Agree with every single thing said here except the last bit: unknown mechanics are poor mechanics, people not knowing about them just means they aren't good.

Chess is a hardcore game, but most people understand the rules to it.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Agree with every single thing said here except the last bit: unknown mechanics are poor mechanics, people not knowing about them just means they aren't good.

I never said it was a good thing though, just that some few remnants of their past filled of complex mechanics almost no one understand remains.

 

[MrReaper182]

I did not get into Paradox games because they were "hardcore" but because I love history and Paradox games gave me a chance to change history, a chance to make those what if scenarios I always played out in my head. I stuck with their games in the mid 2000's even if I did find the menu system in games like Victoria 1 bad and confusing, I still love that game bad menu design aside. A better interface and less botton pressing does not mean the company have dumb their games down. Paradox games like a fine wine have gotten better over the years.

 

[Brainblow]

Using the OP's logic, Chess is the ultimate newbie game bereft of strategic play.

That sums it up pretty well. Complexity is not the same thing as depth.

 

[CMDR_HERNE]

It leaves us with only Vic2 and maybe March of the Eagles as hardcore games. Both are pretty old, both are great but I think that hardcores deserve some new installment. I'm not suggesting to create game of the size of EU4. Let it be smaller, designed by small team, with lesser budget. But let it have passion and let it fill the hungry stomaches of hardcore gamers

Obviously not a fan of HOI3 then so by his methodology does that define him into the new "casual hardcore" category.... I'm confused...

All this taxonomy is stereotyping...

 

[Barón Rojo]

I don't consider myself casual scum, but actually I don't like any Hearts of Iron after HoI2 (or Darkest Hour). Seems to me they tried to make the game more realistic adding unnecessarily complex stuff (in HoI3) like "realistic" weather and supply system. HoI2 was simple and worked well, and even if scripted the ai was not that bad like in the modern HoI games, putting zillion of divisions in the Channel Islands, launching trans-Saharan invasions, not managing to make proper landings, invade Norway, the Pacific, etc. I liked my political sliders, my cabinet filled with ministers and having a more focused game where you don't have to automate troops or anything. To me HoI4 was an improvement but still feels too HoI3 imo.

 

[Sourlol]

So EU has turned into clicking simulator.

Every game is a clicking simulator when you strip strip it of context. Have ever played csgo? You click SO MUCH MORE per minute than this game.


That being said, the vast majority of video game players see 4x games, grand strategy games, and generally anything made by or produced by paradox to be a “hardcore” game for a “hardcore” audience.

My friends will dump hundreds of hours into Csgo, lol, wow, rocket league...none of them will even approach paradox games due to the high knowledge barrier to entry...

Maybe you’re just a jaded grizzled grand strategy player who knows the correct decisions to make after thousands of hours...