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Havard's Iron Fist

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Originally posted by Sonny
The Gascons were not mercenaries, just part of the kingdom. The Genoese were probably the most famous crossbow mercenaries in the CK time. The French used them frequently (and then ran them down at Crecy and Agincourt because they were in the way of their charge at Crecy as they were themselves retreating from the English longbowmen).

It is kinda strange that the Genoese used the crossbow since their neighbors the Venetians were selling yew longbow staves to the English (the English had to get special permission from the Doge). :)
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Reading about Aquitaine back in those days I suppose it could be argued that everyone were merchs.:D
 
Originally posted by Idiotboy
Reading about Aquitaine back in those days I suppose it could be argued that everyone were merchs.:D
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Prety much true because by the time of Edward I the armies were more and more starting to get regular pay even though some of the higher nobles came to war at their own expense because it was an honor to do their feudal duty - also this made them more independent from the king.:)
 
Another reason for crossbowmen to be more expensive (in England) was the fact that while Longbowmen were trained peasants mostly, crossbowmen were professional soldiers usually, trained on both long range and close quarters fight, better armoured, and usually better armed (hand to hand weapons I mean). While longbowmen usually travelled light, crossbowmen were increasingly heavier infantry as their equipment evolved.

Also tactics were different. Longbowmen relyed on massive boleys of arrows that would fall as a deadly rain over the enemy as a masse, while crossbowmen used to train heir weapons on individual targets, thus allowing for a slower rate of more selective shots.

I think that longbows were tactically superior when adecuatelly used (in fact far superior, but to be well used, there should ba a quite able commander) but crossbows were still fearsome and deadly, specially if used by well trained and disciplined soldiers.

Well that´s what I think based on what I know
 
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In England it was a lot more likely for crossbowmen to be untrained peasants, after all, there's not much that can go wrong with pointing and firing a crossbow, whereas the longbowmen required many years of training, peasants though they were. And stop calling them English!!! Most of the effective longbowmen were either Welsh or from the Marches!!!
 
Well, moss, you are right, most were welsh, in my post it was a kind of "generalization", but i´m sorry if it was ofensive to you.

I agree with you to a large extent. I would only like to meake a few minor points:

- Longbows are "cultural" weapons (used by the folk traditonally), what means there were not many longbowmen apart from those coming from the isles.

- I agree Longbows were far more difficult to master than crossbows, because xbow bolt followed a straighter course to its target than longbow arrows, but a good xbowman needed proper training too.

And, by the way, what about composite bows? Not that there were many on christion kingdoms, but there were common in eastern and oriental armies.
 
Yeah, longbowmen were most definitely cultural weapons, you never really saw them outside of the British Isles in any significant numbers. I have read a couple of papers suggesting that it was due to the prevalance of mounted infantry, rather than cavalry in Britain, that meant the domestic forces developed that way.

However, I still think that xbows were monkey weapons designed to arm a mass quickly and easily. After all, weren't they outlawed by one Pope as they required so little training, they were allowing the peasants to take out armoured horsemen with disturbing ease?
 
Indeed, that is absolutely true, Moss, as fireweapons were also outlawed, on the same basis.
Still, xbows were among the few ranged weapons (along with longbows, of course) capable of penetrating plate armour, no "short" bow was ever able todo so (and so was not a weapon against armored chivalry). Now take in account that it was such an advantage (to be able to knock down heavy cavalry and infantry far before they flat you) that xbow was very popular depite it´s limitations in rate of fire and range. To compensate this (and to make them fully effective weapons) training was required, specially since xbows were growing heavier and more complicated over time. Xbowmen were usually equiped with, at least, quilted armour, more usually chainmail hauberks, or even plate. And that was not cheap or easy. It was part of an effort to protect valuable troops (both trained and effective), should xbows have been son easy to handle or innefective as you suggest no one would have taken so much pain in recruiting and armig xbowmen. Specially since "regular" bows were moe than enough to hit hard light and medium infantry and levies.
 
Originally posted by Alexandre
Let's remember that Demetrios is named after one of the warrior saints. He's right up there with St. George in any Orthodox church, actually a little bit more popular than St. George.

So, go forth with your Iron Fist, oh champion of Orthdoxy. :D

Alexandre
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The Byzantine armies would always be led by icons of St. Demetrios, St. George, and two St. Theodores (who may have been one in the same actually...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
The Byzantine armies would always be led by icons of St. Demetrios, St. George, and two St. Theodores (who may have been one in the same actually...
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What was that icon that was captured by the crusaders in 1204 again?
 
Originally posted by Sonny
Prety much true because by the time of Edward I the armies were more and more starting to get regular pay even though some of the higher nobles came to war at their own expense because it was an honor to do their feudal duty - also this made them more independent from the king.:)
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Well not exactly what I was aiming for but I suppose that´s correct as well and is connected to the fact that the loyalty in Aquitaine was to your purse first and foremost.:D
 
Originally posted by Havard
What was that icon that was captured by the crusaders in 1204 again?
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The one that can still be seen in St Mark's in Venice? That's the Virgin Nikopoeia, the Bringer of Victory.
 
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