Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

[Thrake]

I'm really looking forward to how it plays out. The whole concept of supply and convoys should allow hoi to be the only Paradox game to give fleets the treatment and importance they deserve, rather than being barely a currency that allows to colonize (victoria), make money (EU), transport troops and that you keep safe home in times of war.

 

[dizzle3]

You can't destroy equipment, if you disband a tank division the tanks will be moved into your stockpile for later use.

Or upgrade then? I'm just imagining what exploits might happen in multiplayer

 

[No idea]

And what if I want to ride my tanks in circles around Moscow in June? No attrition, no fight... but I have to supply my tanks with tanks. Just another stupid and lazy shortcut in the development of HOI4.

The mere act of moving an AFV (or any other vehicle) should produce breakdowns, as IRL, so, in that sense, to move your tanks around Moscow during June you will need some more tanks, produced with oil.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Podcat have pretty much confirmed (in an older thread) that infrastructure affects how many resources are produced, so if you bomb infrastructure of oil states you can destroy your enemy's oil production.

Think you can find where? Would be interesting to see.

 

[Denkt]

Or upgrade then? I'm just imagining what exploits might happen in multiplayer

You uppgrade by replacing your equipment, the obsolete equipment are moved back into stockpile while the new equipment take its place.

Think you can find where? Would be interesting to see.

Maybe, but it was a while ago so it can be hard.

 

[pharaomatic]

So this means that the abstract "supply" of HOI3 is now instead requests for specific equipment instead which fits a lot better in with HOI4's equipment and production focus. This also means that there is no separate fuel need as such in the game, this instead is included in production of replacement equipment which need Oil (all tanks, trucks etc). Before everyone chokes on their friday beer give this some thought. Being able to stockpile fuel generally leads to the same problems as all other kinds of stockpiling when it comes to hindsight, so by wrapping it into the actual production of equipment requests to units (also nobody would request a tank without diesel to run it, and if they did it wouldn't really be usable as a tank) everything clicks into place and player doesn't have to micro manage all movement, airplane rebasing etc to try to avoid fuel waste and focus on making sure they have access to a strategic Oil resource and replacement equipment and a clear path for units to be supplied.

Sorry, but I'm not really a big fan of this no stockpiling-policy that HOI4 has. While good to a certain degree, imo it feels too unrealistic.

While it works, it doesn't feel right IMO. Of course supplies is both fuel and spare parts, but the usual approach, when say, a tank breaks down and no spare parts is available, is to cannibalize other tanks. If there's no more fuel, there's just no more fuel (or food for that matter). And historically, you stockpiled supplies before an offensive, it's not hindsight it's just common sense.

 

[Denkt]

Sorry, but I'm not really a big fan of this no stockpiling-policy that HOI4 has.

HOI4 have stockpiles in the form of equipment. Equipment themself represent both the thing on the picture as well as everything needed to support it.

 

[hewhoispale]

[QUOTE"dizzle3, post: 20211881, member: 278827"]What stops stockpiling of tanks acting in much the same way as stockpiling of fuel? Aside from them being possibly a little out of date?[/QUOTE]
Stockpiling a billion Panzer IIs before the war has a cost in relation to not making other things. HOI3 Resources and fuel didn't become antiquated (the 1936 coal is just as effective in 1944) and didn't require an IC investment. You'll need to invest industry to building all those tanks and they won't be good forever in the same way.

 

[Vukodav]

The mere act of moving an AFV (or any other vehicle) should produce breakdowns, as IRL, so, in that sense, to move your tanks around Moscow during June you will need some more tanks, produced with oil.

So, in the end, we are not talking about supplying a force, but replacing loses.

You already have that part covered you know, attrition counter takes care of that - so if a tank break down due to attrition, you rebuild one and reinforce the unit.

They actually made two reinforce bars, it's just that one reinforces your unit's loses and upgrades it with newer gear, and another one resupply it... with the same things you reinforce it with, but without the change of stats.

Or we are having reinforce and resupply do the same thing... without any of those two actually working as a supply chain should?

 

[Alex_brunius]

While it works, it doesn't feel right IMO. Of course supplies is both fuel and spare parts, but the usual approach, when say, a tank breaks down and no spare parts is available, is to cannibalize other tanks. If there's no more fuel, there's just no more fuel (or food for that matter). And historically, you stockpiled supplies before an offensive, it's not hindsight it's just common sense.

I think the issue is more about strategic hindsight, like knowing there will be a world-war at all, that is the issue here. And in some sense it could still be an issue in HoI4 since you now can stockpile equipment with this hindsight and knowing your likely enemies.

However, I still would like to see a strategic fuel stockpile that limited how actively you can use your navy and airforce ( and tanks ). But have high costs attached to maintaining or trading for the stockpile to limit exploits.

 

[dizzle3]

does the equipment instantly get sent back to the stockpile? Or have to be transported?

Another possible exploit is to disband encircled divisions if it is instant.

If it isn't instant, can I create a "dummy" division in North Africa which has all my spare tanks in it as a nice local stockpile?

I'm just hoping those who get into the beta spend some time trying to be a multiplayer exploiter so at least some attempt can be made to close potential loopholes

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Next diary we will take a look at civil wars and coups!

Roll on next week.

 

[NeFuRii]

My main concern with fuel is that attrition may not always correspond to fuel usage. In some cases the attrition should be higher, such as in difficult terrain when a unit is standing still. Then its equipment breakdowns as well as soldiers die. But in other cases the fuel usage should be higher, when you are moving your panzer around the roads of europe.
But hoi4 ties one to the other. In a way, it makes us pay with metal and other resources for fuel usage, while in other cases we pay fuel for casualties resulted in fighting. In theory as long as the average always remains the same, it would be a good abstract system. But in reality, I'm not sure if it won't feel weird.

 

[Hatting]

I think the issue is more about strategic hindsight, like knowing there will be a world-war at all, that is the issue here. And in some sense it could still be an issue in HoI4 since you now can stockpile equipment with this hindsight and knowing your likely enemies.

However, I still would like to see a strategic fuel stockpile that limited how actively you can use your navy and airforce ( and tanks ). But have high costs attached to maintaining or trading for the stockpile to limit exploits.

Yes, you can stockpile equipment knowing there is a World War coming, but most of that equipment will be obsolete in a few years

 

[No idea]

Sorry, but I'm not really a big fan of this no stockpiling-policy that HOI4 has. While good to a certain degree, imo it feels too unrealistic.

While it works, it doesn't feel right IMO. Of course supplies is both fuel and spare parts, but the usual approach, when say, a tank breaks down and no spare parts is available, is to cannibalize other tanks. If there's no more fuel, there's just no more fuel (or food for that matter). And historically, you stockpiled supplies before an offensive, it's not hindsight it's just common sense.

I asked in another thread if AFVs or planes could be cannibalized. I am not sure if they can, but that should be a good addition to "fix" that problem. A country that hlods "the field" after a battle should be able to repair some equipment damaged, using "cannibalism" if needed.

 

[Denkt]

does the equipment instantly get sent back to the stockpile? Or have to be transported?

I think it will need to be transported back to the capital.

Another possible exploit is to disband encircled divisions if it is instant.

Which would atleast reduce the exploitness of this because you would lose your equipment and probably your manpower as well.

My main concern with fuel is that attrition may not always correspond to fuel usage. In some cases the attrition should be higher, such as in difficult terrain when a unit is standing still. Then its equipment breakdowns as well as soldiers die. But in other cases the fuel usage should be higher, when you are moving your panzer around the roads of europe.
But hoi4 ties one to the other. In a way, it makes us pay with metal and other resources for fuel usage, while in other cases we pay fuel for casualties resulted in fighting. In theory as long as the average always remains the same, it would be a good abstract system. But in reality, I'm not sure if it won't feel weird.

Yes I can't say your incorrect. However the core idea is that without oil you will not be able to make use of tanks. Without oil you will be unable to produce many tanks. Without tank production your armored divisions will soon cease to exist. The old system did not have that effect, oil is much more important now if you wan't to play with tanks.

 

[misterbean]

Sounds great. Will add a lot to making the game feel more accessible without sacrificing complexity. I like it.

 

[No idea]

My main concern with fuel is that attrition may not always correspond to fuel usage. In some cases the attrition should be higher, such as in difficult terrain when a unit is standing still. Then its equipment breakdowns as well as soldiers die. But in other cases the fuel usage should be higher, when you are moving your panzer around the roads of europe.
But hoi4 ties one to the other. In a way, it makes us pay with metal and other resources for fuel usage, while in other cases we pay fuel for casualties resulted in fighting. In theory as long as the average always remains the same, it would be a good abstract system. But in reality, I'm not sure if it won't feel weird.

Yes, the new system feels weird, but I hope that, like with so many other things in PDS games, we will get realistic results, even if weird systems are used.

 

[dizzle3]

I think it will need to be transported back to the capital.


Which would atleast reduce the exploitness of this because you would lose your equipment and probably your manpower as well.

But then can't you stockpile equipment locally by having a dummy division that you disband when you need more equipment?

 

[No idea]

HOI4 have stockpiles in the form of equipment. Equipment themself represent both the thing on the picture as well as everything needed to support it.

Yes, the only thing that is worrying are, imho, "panzer rushes". What if the enemy is not good at all stopping you? (you simply encircle enemy troops, fighting as few as possible). The germans spearheads during Barbarossa were always stopped due to lack of fuel. Winter came later (Guderian was stopped four days before the first snow came due to complete lack of fuel). What if the SU AI is bad enough so that it doesnt really scraps your panzer divisions much? In theory you could go all the way to Moscow non stop.