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All good, and you're quite right - sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest fleets wouldn't have range or could go anywhere with impunity. The Home Fleet would, presumably, be able to bounce from Scapa Flow to Hong Kong (taking however long it would take to sail there) and be operational at its max range there the next day, as long as it was in supply though (presuming Hong Kong is suitably built up in HoI4 - substitute for Singapore or Alexandria if there's any doubt). My main concern, though, is that it's free to operate once built - which effectively means the majority of the UK, US, Japanese and Italian BBs are basically 'free' all game - there's no cost for having or running them. This just feels off, and given the low manpower requirements of naval units, would allow for extreme fleets to be produced (as you only need the oil once, and there's no way they can require a realistic amount of oil to be included in the base cost of the unit, or the cost in oil will provoke outrage).

For example, under the proposed system, if the UK decides to have its entire navy on the sea at all times, there's no impact, at all, on the amount of oil available for the use of their air force or armoured and motorised forces. While there was far too much oil available in HoI3, when I was playing them and went to a war footing, I noticed the impact it had on my stocks and very much the impact it had on my use. If there hadn't been crazy-easy conversion, I would have actually had to manage it, and in a number of mods you do have to manage it. In HoI4, it's not even there, so there's no management required at all, which means no cost of use (there's limits to use, as you describe, but no cost per se), which means there's no choice - of course you use them. Therefore, we have less player choice, therefore we have less strategic depth. It's a valid game design position to take, mind, and not inherently 'wrong', but it is less deep.



It's not rocket science, and there are a number of ways to skin the cat. The way I'm planning to try modding it based on what we know, and prior to any discussion with others (I presume a few of us will bang our heads together and try and do one or two fuel mods well, rather than ten mods that aren't as well tested or refined, no pun intended :)) is to remove oil from the cost of ships (and other units), then add in a fuel cost for ships moving (if possible - fingers crossed it is).

Fuel is produced (by military or civilian factories, or automatically converted from 'spare' oil in your flow - whichever makes sense), and there is either a very limited stockpile (I'd think 2 months max) or the units work with fuel the same way they work with being out of supply in other ways - ie, they have their 30 days, then they're in trouble. If nations don't have oil, there'd be some kind of back-up system, but with no coal I'd need to think more on how this'll work. It could be a set rate based on total military and civilian factories, for example, that was plenty low, but enough to do some emergency stuff (keep in mind that nations can build their own synthetic refineries, so someone running out completely probably has themselves to blame, and should be punished for it in-game terms appropriately).

The trickiest thing isn't the system to do it - there are a number of possible, plausible alternatives that would add strategic depth to the game that look to be able to mod without too much trouble (ie, a bit of work, but no need for dark magic) into the game. The tricky thing is finding a method that the AI can use without falling in a hole, and we won't know how that'll work until we get our hands on the game, so no point getting ideas too fixed until that point.

This way there's a cost for using your navy, so instead of a free lunch it's a strategic decision (strategic resource allocation is a key component of strategy games, after all). You still have the excellent system for determining how much can be supported where, but you don't have 'free use forever' ships, so you have more strategic depth to boot. And it'll be a mod, so only those of us who want to use it will, and those who don't like the challenge of managing fuel consumption can play the base game and have a great time as well, everyone wins :). The more I think about it (and read comments from experienced modders), the more I'm sure we can have it in the game if we want, so the less concerned I am about it being out of the base game (although it will be a bit of a chore having to test/update the mod each patch, but thems the breaks).

Good luck with the new design ideas on fuel usage, I wonder what happens given this scenario: You have enough fuel to sortie your fleet to invade country B so you do,..... then country A surprise attacks your armoured army, they count as moving so incur fuel usage, say you now don't have enough fuel resource? .... Does your fleet now stop in the middle of the ocean not being able to move? Oh that wouldn't be realistic! so they can operate until there fuel tanks run dry, (hope you have included fuel tank capacity in your model) and they return to port? Immediately? Can they still carry on with the invasion mission if there is a fuel shortage?

I expect what you will find is that players not being able move things when they want will - make them question and argue with holes in the "Fuel model", then you will resort to stock piles to mitigate the players from running out of fuel. If a player runs out of fuel to do stuff, you can bet that they will blame the fuel model rather than their game play.... then you will be back to Hoi 3 .... where fuel usage is in the game but with so little influence on the game so that it isn't really noticed.


Many problems like this will make a fuel usage model a bridge too far I think.
 
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Good luck with the new design ideas on fuel usage, I wonder what happens given this scenario: You have enough fuel to sortie your fleet to invade country B so you do,..... then country A surprise attacks your armoured army, they count as moving so incur fuel usage, say you now don't have enough fuel resource? .... Does your fleet now stop in the middle of the ocean not being able to move? Oh that wouldn't be realistic! so they can operate until there fuel tanks run dry, (hope you have included fuel tank capacity in your model) and they return to port? Immediately? Can they still carry on with the invasion mission if there is a fuel shortage?

I expect what you will find is that players not being able move things when they want will - make them question and argue with holes in the "Fuel model", then you will resort to stock piles to mitigate the players from running out of fuel. If a player runs out of fuel to do stuff, you can bet that they will blame the fuel model rather than their game play.... then you will be back to Hoi 3 .... where fuel usage is in the game but with so little influence on the game so that it isn't really noticed.


Many problems like this will make a fuel usage model a bridge too far I think.

There's definitely a need for either a short stockpile or in-built stockpiles in the units (which are already there in HoI4) - as long as both are transparent, so that it's clear that the fleet can only operate for another 30 days, say, or that that built up stockpile has dropped from 2 months to 6 weeks, then it's up to the player to make strategic choices. In the scenario you give, if the player thinks that the ongoing combat with their armoured group is likely to go on for long enough to deplete whatever small stockpile is in the game, then the player needs to think about their fleet action. That's what I mean by providing strategic choices, and it'll be a mod, so if the player isn't up to that, then it's not the mod for them. As per my previous post, there would need to be some kind of small stockpile, either like that intended for the production system or a limited national fuel stockpile, and I can't imagine either method would be too difficult to put together. Of course, whoever works on it will tweak it so that it does what we want it to do, or we'll drop it - we're hardly going to mod the game to make it less realistic, that wouldn't make a lot of sense :).

That said, I don't think it's so much a player issue (you could say the same thing about tanks getting caught in the mud of Russia, but that's no reason to take mud out of the game), as long as the player knows what they're in for, but rather one for the AI - can we get the AI to know when it can attack and when it can't, or do we have to give the AI bonus fuel resources so it doesn't run itself into the ground (and can we?), and if so, does that mess up the balance? Given the difficulty in programming AI for GSGs, I suspect if we gave the AI unlimited fuel it still wouldn't cause too much trouble, but I'd rather something a dash more elegant. As I mentioned in my previous post, without seeing what levers we've got to pull in terms of AI behaviour and things like the whether different attrition rates are possible for different types of equipment, it's a bit hard to say whether it is possible (I only think it's likely, not 100 per cent that it is) and what form it will take. But if the problem is solvable for the AI, then it will add strategic depth to gameplay that reflects the strategic challenges faced by the actual participants in WW2, which I can't see would be a bad thing to have as a mod? Happy for you to argue otherwise, don't get me wrong :). If we do get it to work, I highly doubt anyone anyone would be forced to play it :).
 
The element of supply and being able to cut it off makes this game series stand out so much compared to other games. I was wondering that besides attaching supply brigadesit maybe possible also to config mechanic shops so you need less supply since they can fix allot or convert captured parts, brings me to the question how does capturing of enemy supplies work, any depots that can be seized?
 
I think this is very unhistorical.
We want a historic and realistic game, because when we want a mainstream product we can buy other games to.
Also in my opinion the oob in hoi3 was one of the best ideas in the game.
And PLEASE more micromanagment, this is what the game makes so exciting.
I want a game with a lot of thoughtfull and please NO mainstream, go your own way of game development.

No, it is not less historical than HOI3.
Less immersive? Certainly, OOB, moving supplies, stockpiles etc. were pretty immersive for people who are into WW2.
Less historical? Certainly not, what was historical about all those OOB bonuses? What was historical about supplies always moving 1 province per day regardless of everything else, stockpiles lasting years, losing all your stockpiles with capital, magical equipment upgrades, instant production changes with zero efficiency loss and all the other bugs/poor design choices of HOI3?
 
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^ Exactly. I would enjoy to see a very complex system beneath a very intuitive interface that gives me great control over minute things. But in the end I'm interested in something functional that I can use to properly plan my campaigns over something needlessly complicated or difficult to use. Having both fuel and supplies would have been better in terms of immersion and for gameplay, if done right. Having just one system that offers the same options in terms of planning and actual use that encapsulates all units' requirements is ok too, but if it means that the game is better balanced because there's more developement time now, then it seems like the logical solution to me.
 
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I don't understand why so many people are complaining about the new system here.
I would give it a try and complain about it, if it is really bad after playing it at least one time but not crying all the time before.
It is like always, if something new is coming many people are shouting about how sh**** it will be just because it is new.

The most important thing should be the balancing in the game in my opinion. And to be honest the supply system was not well balanced in HoI III, I never had problems as germany with fuel or supplies - and that was just weird in difference to history.

Maybe many people should just realize that the new system is not longer about active bringing supplies to the front (food, ammunition and fuel are coming automatically depending to bottlenecks) but rather about producing and bringing equipment to the units. I mean you still need to have the (abstract) supply system running to bring your equipment to the divison - having problems with the transport route means not to bring equipment in and that is not unrealistic or mainstream.

I dont agree. There have been many new features in HoI IV and a good number of those features and changes have been welcomed by most people. Others (like the no fuel for "moving around", just for production) not so mucch. Reasons are all around this thread and the other one so I wont repeat them.

Anyway, HoI 3 supply system was well balanced (even if it had another problem, mainly that it was difficult to say where your problems came from and how to solve them). If you, or anybody, never had problems with fuel or supplies in HOI 3 it was due to a ridiculous ability to stockpile a resource in huge quantities, not because of the supply system. Several mods fixed that problem. I think PDS never wanted to "fix" it because they think making players run into those sort of problems (no or almost no fuel, so your mechanized units cant move) is not fun. I disagree.

The new system is not bad, but it has a few important problems (basically, I think they have changed a system with a few problems with a system with a different set of problems, instead of fixing the problems of the old system, which I think would have been better). First, fuel should be in the game not just as a resource, but as something units need to move around. I wont explain the reasons again. Second, afaik, it doesnt take into account distance to supply source. In all military history, distance to the supply source makes supplying your troops far more difficult that if your supply source is near. Since, afaik, there are no supply sources in HoI IV, because supplies dont "travel" through the map, a very important strategic aspect of warfare is left out.
 
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Sometimes I think it's just that people want to have huge stockpiles like they did in HOI3. Wanting to stockpile everything before the war so that they can be happy with the amount of things they have and not worry about it later. Claiming you want it real, at least like it was back then, and then turning around and wanting resource stockpiles makes absolutely no sense.

Not everyone wants or sees the need for stockpiles of resourses. In fact some of us advocate for a fuel system that is very similar to the new supply system (that I really like the look of).

Posted this in the mega thread too but very keen to get as much feedback as possible on it. Why not just build the supply system so that it can have any number of 'consumable resource' operating then just add oil (this would also allow modders to easily add in things like food and ammo too). The post is:


The supply system does exactly what we need it to:

It has provinces/zones that produce supply and this then migrates to zones without supply. As long as a unit has access to supply they are fine - if they don't then they start to operate at reduced efficiency. Units in a pocket with supply can continue to fight.

Replace supply with oil:

It has provinces/zones that produce oil and this then migrates to zones without oil. As long as a unit has access to oil they are fine - if they don't then they start to operate at reduced efficiency. Units in a pocket with oil can continue to fight.

And taken one step further if this system is made generic to the point where new consumption resources can be modded in then it's pure gold:

It has provinces/zones that produce food and this then migrates to zones without food. As long as a unit has access to food they are fine - if they don't then they start to operate at reduced efficiency. Units in a pocket with food can continue to fight.

The best part is the supply system is already in game so would hopefully only require a moderate amount of work to make it generic and make sure consumption resources flowed around correctly.

So an infantry division requires 1 supply and 0 oil (to remain 'in supply')
An armour division requires 1 supply and 1 oil
A Battleship requires 0.5 supply and 3 oil
etc...

You'd need to be able to determine which consumption resources caused attrition though. Lack of supply would cause attrition and reduce fighting efficiency, lack of oil would just reduce fighting efficiency.

You'd then be able to trade your excess consumption resources to other players but I think the existing trade mechanics are perfect for this.

  • Solves the oil problem
  • No stockpiles
  • Uses a system that is already in game and designed to do exactly what we need
  • Can use the existing trade mechanics which would work just as well for consumable resources as production resources.
  • Is highly moddable


This is how it would look:

View attachment 143091
 
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Weather effects attrition and supply. More historical : seems lots of time in WWII that weather played a big role in lowering supply limit, retreat ability (if lacking supply), and time to move. Now that we got a easy to see weather systems, and comments about how they want it to be visible so that it can effect things more, I wonder how that will effect sea movement, because it says in the weather DD that it will effect Naval movement.. I can't wait to see the difference in the seasons. Should be sweet!
 
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Not everyone wants or sees the need for stockpiles of resourses. In fact some of us advocate for a fuel system that is very similar to the new supply system (that I really like the look of).

If it runs along the same line as supply, and works just like supply does, then why not make it included in supply?
Personally, I think that it already does, out of suppy = attrition, attrition = less oil consuming equipment build. Specially when you are constantly producing, and that one thing I keep trying to point out, that you are always producing, so always using oil. The more tanks in a division, the more ships in a fleet, the more oil you will use. Training will effect it also, only thing is I wish pilots could train at airbases. That would be sweet.

Oh so with the new supply system, we can now do things like market garden, I think. Taking Victory Points and local supply dumps will mean that paratroopers are going to be fun !
 
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If it runs along the same line as supply, and works just like supply does, then why not make it included in supply?

Because supply and oil are different. Supply is for all the more generic things like food, ammo, medical supplies etc... that were all important but were not scarce. There was enough of all these things available, the main problem was getting them to where they were needed. Oil was scarce. The problem was not just getting it to where it was needed but having it in the first place. The supply system works for the distribution of consumable resources but because oil was so scarce you can't lump it into a generic supply system of things that weren't scarce (otherwise everyone would have it all the time).
 
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I understand you are irritated, but no need to spam with memes. I would recommend using spoilers, because this was very confusing and kind of interupted the discussion for me without adding anything.

Someone asked him to repost, so he did.
 
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If it runs along the same line as supply, and works just like supply does, then why not make it included in supply?
Personally, I think that it already does, out of suppy = attrition, attrition = less oil consuming equipment build. Specially when you are constantly producing, and that one thing I keep trying to point out, that you are always producing, so always using oil. The more tanks in a division, the more ships in a fleet, the more oil you will use. Training will effect it also, only thing is I wish pilots could train at airbases. That would be sweet.

Oh so with the new supply system, we can now do things like market garden, I think. Taking Victory Points and local supply dumps will mean that paratroopers are going to be fun !


Hmm....


Assuming that resources are meant to be scarce the most effective way to make use of those resources would be to build only what you think you will need and then try and not lose it, however its impossible not to lose equipment because every action you perform will cost you equipment.


I had assumed that this would then encourage the creation of equipment stockpiles but thinking a little more about this, once you are in a cycle of producing equipment to 1\ build new Divisions and 2\ paying for the actions of your existing Divisions (especially during a War) it really becomes a choice between building new Divisions or re-equipping your existing Divisions and not about stockpiles.

Even before the war you wont want to have large stockpiles of equipment because that equipment will become obsolete and you certainly don’t want obsolete equipment to be the actual replacements for your Divisions actions.


I pointed out in another thread that if you wish to upgrade from light tanks to medium tanks it would be more efficient to create new Divisions that contain half medium and half light tanks rather then sending the light tanks to a stockpile. You would also want to stop the production of light tanks as quickly as possible so that all your Divisions will become medium tank Divisions.


So as I see it now you will not have or want to have large stockpiles of equipment only enough to sustain your Divisions and build new Divisions, in fact having a large stockpile of anything means you have made a error.
 
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I would not say that big stockpiles are an error because the war will consume equipment very quickly and from my understanding it is better to have few divisions at max strength then alot of divisions at very low strength. One major error you can do in HOI4 is to build more divisions then what you can support.
 
if something new is coming many people are shouting about how sh**** it will be just because it is new.
No... its not because its new, its because its sh*****. People wanted a deep strategy game in the line of HoI3, and clearly we aren't going to get that, not even close.

The most important thing should be the balancing in the game in my opinion. And to be honest the supply system was not well balanced in HoI III, I never had problems as germany with fuel or supplies - and that was just weird in difference to history.
Exactly, the problems that people usually point out to justify this new system is the lack of balance of HoI3, NOT the lack of game mechanics or that they were broken, and it was proven beyond any doubt that when modders balanced properly HoI3, you couldn't just abuse the mechanics and get away with it.

I don't want lots of added stuff to worry about, I think adding pointless things in the game is horrible. Players stockpile equipment, so I feel this makes sense.
Facepalm.
Double Facepalm.

Why make everyone else suffer because you want to run the army laundry?
Did you ever play HoI3? Did you know you could delegate to the AI the jobs you didn't want to perform yourself? Did you know that for the most part the AI did a good job at it, even with the complex game mechanics HoI3 had?

Sometimes I think it's just that people want to have huge stockpiles like they did in HOI3. Wanting to stockpile everything before the war so that they can be happy with the amount of things they have and not worry about it later.
Or maybe people want to have realistic stockpiles mechanics where there's actual limitations and losses, in order to enhance the strategic depth of the game, and to allow gamers to pursue different approaches to different problems.
And go figure... to stockpile materials you have to buy them... to buy them they have to be available... to buy them you have to spend money... to spend money you have to have money... to have money you have sell production material... if you sell material you don't equip your troops with it... do you see where I'm going... or is it to complex?

Many people explained in detail what they don't like in the new system related to the lack of actual supplies and fuel. That doesn't mean they don't like all the features of the new system nor that they want to stick to the HOI3 system which had it's very own weaknesses.

I respect your opinions about what you like or want in the game. Please don't misrepresent the opinions of others to increase the value of yours.
Exactly this.
 
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