Heretics

[unmerged(38537)]

Hey All.

One time I thought about heretic movements in Europe - why not expand them in "Aberration"?

These are my proposals:
1. Let's think that the crusade against the Cathares has failed and their believings are still spreading through Southern Europe (for example Italy, Aragon...).
2. The Bogomils' power is still growing and they gain new supporters in the Balkans - what about this alternative history?
3. The Lollards became dominant religious group in Britain... - is this idea interesting?

The Catholics would have problems, but also new reasons for the crusades, then...

What do You think about this?

 

[TheArchduke]

Wouldn`t such a drastic change in religion, no catholic dominance with a reformation alter the course of history beyond imagination?

 

[unmerged(38537)]

Wouldn`t such a drastic change in religion, no catholic dominance with a reformation alter the course of history beyond imagination?

I thought that some Catholic countries would survive... But, You're right, Kind Sir - the Catholics wouldn't be dominant...
And the second question - do You think my ideas would make world totally aberrated?

And I notice that perhaps no one before thought about making Italy non-Catholic...

 

[Incompetent]

One thing we could do is have the Reformation and Calvin flags turned on in 1419, to allow us to play with pre-Reformation Protestant and Reformed provinces. The real Reformation would then trigger province-by-province in the 16th century, a la Alun's Reformation Mod.

Unfortunately, few nations in Western Europe are going to be willing to openly oppose the Catholic Church until the floodgates open - and if we make that happen in 1419, we really would be Aberrating beyond imagination.

I think we can say that if the Cathars and Bogomils have survived to 1419, it will be in a muted form, with no countries with Gnostic state religion. If Occitanie, northern Italy and a swathe of the Balkans were all controlled by Gnostics, it would probably indicate that they'd taken on the whole Catholic world crusading against them and won, as there's no way Rome would let them get this powerful without a fight.

How about periodic events which create heretical provinces, with the (non-default) possibility for them to eventually take over the country once the power of the Catholic church is broken? They'd be a continued nuisance for Catholic or Orthodox countries, but the cost of purging them completely would be large enough that players might put up with them for a while.

The Lollards are another matter, as they're a reform movement within Catholicism, whereas the Gnostics are arguably not even Christian. But still, Scotland or whoever will suffer horribly if we give them Protestant or Reformed state religion in 1419. What I'd suggest is that Lollardy does become powerful for a while in Britain and this precipitates a crisis, which is eventually resolved by coming to a compromise with the Lollards. This would be reflected by Scotland etc turning back to Catholic, but suffering diplomatic penalties as they're seen as having appeased the heretics. Later on, when the Church's authority is crumbling, the Lollards could be key players in the Reformation in Britain.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

One thing we could do is have the Reformation and Calvin flags turned on in 1419, to allow us to play with pre-Reformation Protestant and Reformed provinces. The real Reformation would then trigger province-by-province in the 16th century, a la Alun's Reformation Mod.

I suggested that in the "New order in Central Europe" thread and I still want it to be added...

How about periodic events which create heretical provinces, with the (non-default) possibility for them to eventually take over the country once the power of the Catholic church is broken? They'd be a continued nuisance for Catholic or Orthodox countries, but the cost of purging them completely would be large enough that players might put up with them for a while.

Something like this?
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V

(no country - province-triggered)
"The Cathare heresy is spreading"
(some description)
A) "Ignore that and be tolerant"
+ innovativeness, - centralization, - stability (?), province converts
B) "Fight the heresy"
- innovativeness, + centralization, revolts in the province
C) "Express support"
+ innovativeness, - stability, more provinces convert, state religion changes

The Lollards are another matter, as they're a reform movement within Catholicism, whereas the Gnostics are arguably not even Christian. But still, Scotland or whoever will suffer horribly if we give them Protestant or Reformed state religion in 1419. What I'd suggest is that Lollardy does become powerful for a while in Britain and this precipitates a crisis, which is eventually resolved by coming to a compromise with the Lollards. This would be reflected by Scotland etc turning back to Catholic, but suffering diplomatic penalties as they're seen as having appeased the heretics. Later on, when the Church's authority is crumbling, the Lollards could be key players in the Reformation in Britain.

Good ideas...

 

[Incompetent]

(no country - province-triggered)
"The Cathare heresy is spreading"
(some description)
A) "Ignore that and be tolerant"
+ innovativeness, - centralization, - stability (?), province converts
B) "Fight the heresy"
- innovativeness, + centralization, revolts in the province
C) "Express support"
+ innovativeness, - stability, more provinces convert, state religion changes

Something like that, but I wouldn't give the option to convert repeatedly (this event will fire many times for a big country). Perhaps have a separate event later on which fires once per country, giving the option of conversion. Also, I'd give the option to stop the heresy once and for all, but this would obviously cost a lot more than suppressing it temporarily in one province. I'd probably make the half-hearted suppression the default option for the AI.

As for which religion, I don't think the Cathars really fit into the Catholic/Protestant/Reformed/Orthodox classification of Christendom - they believed the world was created by an evil deity, for goodness' sake. We could make them 'Hindu', perhaps?

 

[MattyG]

I have also suggested eslewhere that looking into the cathars would be interesting. The Albigensian Crusade destroyed Catharism, but what if it hadn't? What if Simon de Montford had died earlier? What if Benedict had chosen a different path?

I agree with the Archduke that having Catharism still a dominant force in the southern France at game start would be too much, the ramifications too great. Let's say, though, that the cathars were not destroyed, only subjugated. The majority religion/dominant religion in the south is Catholic, but the Church made concessions and permitted the Cathars to exist. So that when the reformation hits, Languedoc and Provence both turn protestant, then later Reformed.

It's something that would have to be handled very carefully, but it could add a layer of richness that will be attractive. For me, the less predictable and more chaotic the period of the Reformation is, the more realistic it is. The current version in EU2 lacks the desperation and bitter, entangled mess of the real one.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

We could make them [Cathares - M.A.] 'Hindu', perhaps?

Drastic idea... But why not?
Would the countries have an opportunity to convert?

And what about other religious movements? The Strigolniks (14-15th century)? The Polish Brothers (16th-17th century)? The Hussites? And many more?

 

[MattyG]

Drastic idea... But why not?
Would the countries have an opportunity to convert?

And what about other religious movements? The Strigolniks (14-15th century)? The Polish Brothers (16th-17th century)? The Hussites? And many more?

One thing I think is for certain: if we accept that all of these earlier 'reformed' religious events had survived, then there would have been no Martin Luther and no Jean Calvin. They were specific to their time, the next in a long history of people opposed to the orthodoxy and corruption of the catholic Church. The exception is that their revolutions succeeded, where the Lollards, Cathars and others did not.

So, if we decide to include all these religions in Europe at 1419, then we need to get rid of the standard Reformation events. Yes, this is drastic. Not necessarily bad, but hugely drastic and a project of great length to get right.

Personally, although it is intriguing, I don't support it, as it will require such a dramatic rethink of the history of Europe. To me, this sounds like a completely different mod, one where the Cathloic faith fragmented by the 12th century instead of the 16th.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

--> Incompetent

I thought about Your ideas to make the Cathares 'Hindu' once more and in my opinion, although it's slightly radical (crazy?), I support it.

--> MattyG
I think that the 'old' heresies and the new movements after the Reformation can co-exist... And if we make those first ones rather minor, no great revolution will be needed.