High Septon can't win rebellion

[DorlasAnther]

When there is rebellion against IT lead by High Septon, he can be joined by every Lord Paramount in Westeros and yet lose immediately. As he is leader of the war, when all his land is conquered, IT gets to 100% warscore immediately. Problem is that High Septon tends to controll only Sept of Baelor, which is bishopric with small amount of soldier in garrison right in KL.
What happens is that unless someone manages to get to KL in first days of the war, he loses, even when he doesn´t get imprisoned.
I thought about giving him some other land, somewhere in the corner of map, with no levy, no income, separated from everything else, so nobody will try to go there or conquer it, just for sake of him not losing every time when he rebels (Imagine that HS declares war on Iron Throne, king marches to Sept of Baelor, conquers it, but HS manages to escape and then he surrenders, even when he has support of literally everyone in the realm. Sounds stupid, doesn´t it?).

 

[Pilatian]

I've seen the High Septon win plenty of times before. They just have to rebel at an opportune time when the king is busy or weak, as one logically should.

 

[SBerger]

Doesn't the High Septon also own a sept in Oldtown? You can also build up his King's Landing sept if you're the king on the Iron Throne, so it gives him a good 5-6k garrison and levy if he decides to rebel.

 

[DorlasAnther]

I've seen the High Septon win plenty of times before. They just have to rebel at an opportune time when the king is busy or weak, as one logically should.

Problem is that in that game, he got support from 3 out of 8 LPs, while king had nobody to back him. He would win, but king assaulted Sept of Baelor and it immediately went to 100% (and HS wasn´t captured). What HS basically has to do is to attack the king when he has already raised troops from KL and moved them away, otherwise he will assault it and that´s it (and it had 124 troops as garrison, with about 200 as levy, so no match for the king´s personal levies from Red Keep).

 

[D Toccs]

What HS basically has to do is to attack the king when he has already raised troops from KL and moved them away, otherwise he will assault it and that´s it

Exactly. The HS (or anyone really) has to choose the right moment to rebel if they want the best chance of succeeding. I've seen the HS win rebellions and dismantle the IT before, I have also seen many reports of this happening in others peoples games so it's not impossible for the HS to win a rebellion. It's just that in your game he was an idiot.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Exactly. The HS (or anyone really) has to choose the right moment to rebel if they want the best chance of succeeding. I've seen the HS win rebellions and dismantle the IT before, I have also seen many reports of this happening in others peoples games so it's not impossible for the HS to win a rebellion. It's just that in your game he was an idiot.

He actually wasn´t. He had support of Reach, Vale and Riverlands, while IT had Crownlands and support of North (owned by Targaryen, with Winterfell being controlled by vassal, so he had half the troops of Riverlands). In terms of manpower, rebels overpowered throne and loyalists aproximately 2 to 1. But, king raised his troops from KL, got people from Rosby and Stokeworth, assaulted Sept of Baelor and ended rebellion without imprisoning HS. Rebels had about 100k troops and controlled 3 out of 9 kingdoms, yet were forced to surrender after losing 200 soldiers and one sept with 100 soldiers, while none of them was imprisoned.

 

[Pilatian]

So.. he rebelled at a bad time when the king's forces were not raised or elsewhere, and he got punished for it. Okay then.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

Your complaint would make more sense if the High Septon chose to rebel while the King of the IT was way off in the north fighting to retake the Wall from the Wildlings or the White Walkers and have all the kingdoms surrounding the Crownlands join him in the war but still somehow lose. Rebelling at a time of total peace when the King's armies are all at home resting and reinforcing? The HS would naturally only be able to put up as much of a fight as the holder of a single barony because, in case you forgot that's exactly what he is according to what you've said.

 

[D Toccs]

He actually wasn´t. He had support of Reach, Vale and Riverlands, while IT had Crownlands and support of North (owned by Targaryen, with Winterfell being controlled by vassal, so he had half the troops of Riverlands). In terms of manpower, rebels overpowered throne and loyalists aproximately 2 to 1. .

Wars are not won by who is stronger on paper.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Wars are not won by who is stronger on paper.

No, but they also aren´t won by people who manage to conquer a temple (Maegor did it with Sept of Remembrance...did rebellion surrender after that?).

 

[Pilatian]

No, but they also aren´t won by people who manage to conquer a temple (Maegor did it with Sept of Remembrance...did rebellion surrender after that?).

And your actually moddable solution to your perceived problem is..?

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

No, but they also aren´t won by people who manage to conquer a temple (Maegor did it with Sept of Remembrance...did rebellion surrender after that?).

He only controls a single barony! It's not like you're dealing with a rebellion from the vanilla Pope where you have to occupy multiple counties, you're dealing with the equivalent of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople. And what happens if the holder of a barony declares independence, even if they can somehow call a kingdom to their aid? They get brutally crushed within 1-2 months. The warscore necessarily hits 100% when you control all the territory of a small realm/ruler because if it didn't you'd never be able to end the war in a timely fashion. And besides, if you insist on treating him like he has the same power and authority as the Pope in vanilla, think about this. Conquering his Sept is the equivalent of the Holy Roman Emperor storming the Vatican. If that happened in real life, the Pope would be forced to admit defeat or be quickly replaced and lose his rightful claim as head of the Catholic Faith, don't you think?

 

[SBerger]

I think you're taking this too seriously. Post-Maegar rule, the High Septon's power was currbed down so much he basically becomes a puppet. If you want to compare him to the Pope in vanilla, you need to have faith authority on max. so the Faith Militant and Poor Fellows can hold land while the High Septon perform actual power than the decision if he wants to do a coronation to you or not. Do this, give the Faith Militant arms, give them lands, give the High Septon power to arrest, THEN send him on a rebellion. Like you said, post-Maegar High Septon is the Ecumenical Patriarch because he has no power, no armies, and no lands beside a weak sept in King's Landing

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

Just remember I don't know anything about the books or television series this is based off of, I'm just going by what I know, which is based off the mod. I've seen pictures on another thread where the HS has a quarter of the Reach in their hold, which would make them much more powerful, but from what I've seen the HS typically starts with a very small amount of territory. On top of that, the HS and his religion seems to be based off Christianity, so comparing it to the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch is as close as I can get without having it explained to me or going on a week long binge on the related wikis. But yeah, the HS in most games seems to be more like the Patriarch in vanilla, but the complaint I'm hearing seems to be that the HS doesn't have the same level of power as the Pope does.

 

[DorlasAnther]

but the complaint I'm hearing seems to be that the HS doesn't have the same level of power as the Pope does.

No, complaint actually is that due to faction mechanics specific to this mod (megawar and that kind of stuff), when factions fire for IT, they become war between owner of IT and leader of faction, with other faction members and also loyal vassals of IT as allies. I see problem with this, because HS could theoretically get support from every LP and every lord in Crownlands, but king of the IT could just raise his troops from KL and assault Sept of Baelor, winning the war immediately, even though everyone in realm is against him.

 

[SBerger]

You're just repeating what you said and ignoring what we are saying though. You see pictures of the Faith controlling large tracts of land, okay, HOW did he do it? What policy changes were made that enabled the faith to conquer land? You also don't need to read the books to understand what the faith can or cannot do, but I strongly suggest you did pick up the series, they are a quite epic read.

I feel like I'm going to repeat my previous post, in the current state of post-Maegar (Second Targaryen King) canon rule, The Faith is basically nothing but a puppet, there is no faith authority in the Iron Throne. Before the conquest, each region had their own faith authority, so the High Septon could in theory conquer land in The Reach, which could have high faith authority, but holds no land in The Rock, which reduced the faith authority of the High Septon. If you want the High Septon to be an active part of the politics in the Iron Throne, raise his faith authority, allow him to inherit or gain land, allow the Faith Militant to both arm and hold land, otherwise they are weak, landless vassals of The Faith. Maybe give the High Septon some land in the Crownlands, who needs the Darklyns anyway?

Here's the best way I can describe it so you can understand. High Septon with high faith authority is the Papacy, who controls lands and armies. High Septon with low or no faith authority is like the Ecumenical Patriarch, no political power and has a single holding, and will be easily crushed if he rebels.

 

[D Toccs]

No, complaint actually is that due to faction mechanics specific to this mod (megawar and that kind of stuff), when factions fire for IT, they become war between owner of IT and leader of faction, with other faction members and also loyal vassals of IT as allies. I see problem with this, because HS could theoretically get support from every LP and every lord in Crownlands, but king of the IT could just raise his troops from KL and assault Sept of Baelor, winning the war immediately, even though everyone in realm is against him.

You don't seem to be understanding that factoring in things like "where are my enemies armies?", "how quickly can they get here?", "how quickly can my allies get here?", "is my enemy distracted or can he immediately mount a defence?", "how much troops do I have access to before my allies can arrive?" are all a necessary even crucial part of going to war.
The High Septon in your game ignored all of those or just chose stupidly. He attacked a enemy much more powerful then himself, in the same county as himself, who wasn't involved in any other wars at the time while his own allies were all on the other side of the continent.

 

[DorlasAnther]

You don't seem to be understanding that factoring in things like "where are my enemies armies?", "how quickly can they get here?", "how quickly can my allies get here?", "is my enemy distracted or can he immediately mount a defence?", "how much troops do I have access to before my allies can arrive?" are all a necessary even crucial part of going to war.
The High Septon in your game ignored all of those or just chose stupidly. He attacked a enemy much more powerful then himself, in the same county as himself, who wasn't involved in any other wars at the time while his own allies were all on the other side of the continent.

Problem is that AI doesn´t think this way. When player declares war, he thinks about this stuff, but AI doesn´t do that. He has more power than king, he declares it. He doesn´t consider the fact that king can immediately conquer him.
We are talking about stupid CK2 AI, which makes its decisions based on numbers, not on facts seen by us, humans.

You're just repeating what you said and ignoring what we are saying though. You see pictures of the Faith controlling large tracts of land, okay, HOW did he do it? What policy changes were made that enabled the faith to conquer land? You also don't need to read the books to understand what the faith can or cannot do, but I strongly suggest you did pick up the series, they are a quite epic read.

I feel like I'm going to repeat my previous post, in the current state of post-Maegar (Second Targaryen King) canon rule, The Faith is basically nothing but a puppet, there is no faith authority in the Iron Throne. Before the conquest, each region had their own faith authority, so the High Septon could in theory conquer land in The Reach, which could have high faith authority, but holds no land in The Rock, which reduced the faith authority of the High Septon. If you want the High Septon to be an active part of the politics in the Iron Throne, raise his faith authority, allow him to inherit or gain land, allow the Faith Militant to both arm and hold land, otherwise they are weak, landless vassals of The Faith. Maybe give the High Septon some land in the Crownlands, who needs the Darklyns anyway?

Here's the best way I can describe it so you can understand. High Septon with high faith authority is the Papacy, who controls lands and armies. High Septon with low or no faith authority is like the Ecumenical Patriarch, no political power and has a single holding, and will be easily crushed if he rebels.

I never said that I want him to have huge land. I only offered one solution that came to my mind: separated county in corner of the map, inaccesible by others, with no income or levy. If he had that, he wouldn´t get to -100% of warscore after losing Sept of Baelor. I never talked about giving him land in Westeros or increasing his levies. I totally agree with HS being weak personally, but he is still vassal of IT and thus, he can start factions and get huge support for them. He was already made HS part of Westerosi politics and thus, even with no faith autority, he can gather support from other people and pose a threat to Iron Throne.
You compare HS to Ecumenical Patriarch, but should I note that in CK2, when EP is leader of a faction, he doesn´t rebel alone? He, as faction leader, becomes liege of faction members and even though he suffers for losing his personal holdings, he doesn´t lose the war immediately. But, even though Megawar system in GoT is much better than pathetic factions in CK2, it hurts factions lead by HS by making them dependant on him holding his single holding.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

I feel like I'm going to repeat my previous post, in the current state of post-Maegar (Second Targaryen King) canon rule, The Faith is basically nothing but a puppet, there is no faith authority in the Iron Throne.

snip

Here's the best way I can describe it so you can understand. High Septon with high faith authority is the Papacy, who controls lands and armies. High Septon with low or no faith authority is like the Ecumenical Patriarch, no political power and has a single holding, and will be easily crushed if he rebels.

So the HS in the series at its current point is pretty much like a token Antipope that only has power or authority as long as their liege allows them to more or less?

@DorlasAnther I don't think you understand one thing about what you're suggesting. If you created a random county off in the corner of the map that nobody could get to and produced no levies or taxes, it'd cause more problems than it'd solve. For one, a ruler who holds a count-tier title must always have their capital be in one of the counties they control, so the HS will rule from an inaccessible location and potentially become impossible to capture. Second, mercenaries that are hired are raised in their employer's capital or a nearby one if a siege is taking place, so if the HS decides to hire mercenaries they'll appear in this inaccessible location in the middle of nowhere and be useless while doing the same while only controlling that one Sept will allow him to hire mercs in or near the IT capital county. Third, this makes it nearly impossible for the King on the Iron Throne to win a civil war against the HS if the majority the LPs join the HS like you say they usually do since they'll be forced to try and defend against their rebelling vassals until the ticking warscore and the warscore from the battles and sieges is high enough to get a surrender or white peace out of the HS. Yeah, you might make the HS last longer, but this method makes every war the AI has against the HS an insanely costly endeavor since the AI must have its levies raised for the duration of the war, even if they can't do anything with them, and that tends to be a big draw on your system's resources.

 

[SBerger]

I never said that I want him to have huge land. I only offered one solution that came to my mind: separated county in corner of the map, inaccesible by others, with no income or levy. If he had that, he wouldn´t get to -100% of warscore after losing Sept of Baelor. I never talked about giving him land in Westeros or increasing his levies. I totally agree with HS being weak personally, but he is still vassal of IT and thus, he can start factions and get huge support for them. He was already made HS part of Westerosi politics and thus, even with no faith autority, he can gather support from other people and pose a threat to Iron Throne.
You compare HS to Ecumenical Patriarch, but should I note that in CK2, when EP is leader of a faction, he doesn´t rebel alone? He, as faction leader, becomes liege of faction members and even though he suffers for losing his personal holdings, he doesn´t lose the war immediately. But, even though Megawar system in GoT is much better than pathetic factions in CK2, it hurts factions lead by HS by making them dependant on him holding his single holding.

No, you never said to give the High Septon more land, you're only complaining about how easy he can be beaten in a rebellion. To which I replied why he's so easily beaten. If you give the High Septon a landless county with no income or levies like Dany's Great Grass Sea or Daemon Targaryen's Company, then you could in theory be stuck in an infinite rebellion against the High Septon. I think it's a quite stupid idea to do this. The High Septon is very weak, and the AI is really stupid in this game, if the High Septon rebels at a stupid time, it's his idiotic fault. What you want is basically change the rules of warscore in this game. The High Septon has one county, conquer it and you conquer his entire kingdom essentially. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion, if the High Septon leads a revolt at the right time, like anyone else in this game, vanilla and mod, then they can do anything. A small baron rebels against you, the King of England, while you have 100% of your forces in Jerusalem fighting a crusade, then they rebelled at the right time. They do it when you're fighting in Scotland, he rebelled a bad time. The same goes with a High Septon, think of him as a baron in your capital county. If you, the King of the Iron Throne, is fighting Rosby when the Faith rebels, they rebelled at a dumb time. If they do it when you're fighting off s Wilding invasion, having your armies crushed by low supply North of the Wall, then they rebelled at a good time. This is not something to riot over.