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High Septon can't win rebellion

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The rebellion issue is a legit concern; you can talk all you want about how the HS should time his revolt properly, but the AI is incapable of doing this. It also means half the Lords Paramount get declared traitors, because their AI also can't take that into account.

The "invulnerable county far away" solution is not acceptable, however, as it leads to other problems.

A couple alternative ideas:

Perhaps make the High Septon temporarily liege of the rebels (sort of akin to the vanilla faction system)?

Or even just give the Sept of Baelor a special building that adds garrison and defense so that it can't be easily assaulted, but must be sieged down for long enough for reinforcements to come?
 
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Rubidium said:
The rebellion issue is a legit concern; you can talk all you want about how the HS should time his revolt properly, but the AI is incapable of doing this. It also means half the Lords Paramount get declared traitors, because their AI also can't take that into account.
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I am usually the first to cite the stupidity of the ai, however . . . Deciding when to declare war and if it's an opportune time to do so based on a number of factor including strength of enemy and allies is actually one of the things the ai is perfectly capable of doing.
This doesn't account for 2 things. 1 - random randomness, which is the essence of replayablity.
2 - character stupidity. We don't know anything about this High Septon, he could quite possibly be an imbecile, lunatic with 2 learning and 0 martial who happens to have ambitious so decided to rebel.

Rubidium said:
Or even just give the Sept of Baelor a special building that adds garrison and defense so that it can't be easily assaulted, but must be sieged down for long enough for reinforcements to come?
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So a special set of circumstances so that the High Septon practically cannot lose?

As a dev, I make it my business to read as many game reports as I can. As I have said upthread, the High Septon can and does win rebellions and either dismantles the Iron Throne or creates a Theocracy of the Crownlands. I've seen it happen in my own games and I have seen more than enough reports of it happening to be comfortable that it is entirely possible.
IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE EASY OR COMMON.
You are presenting one case, in which the HS rebelled under possibly the worst circumstances and was rightfully smashed. That one case is not ever going to trump the multitude of reports I have read/experienced where the HS has rebelled under better circumstances and won.

What you are basically saying is that if the Karstarks with the support of Yi Ti were to rebel against the Starks/North. The Karstarks should not be able to lose, because even though the Starks/North can easily crush their duchy in a matter of months, the Karstarks have the support of Yi Ti so are stronger on paper and therefore should be given a bonus until their allies can arrive and save them.
 
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But the issue isn't strength of allies, it's solely whether the Iron Throne army is raised or not, which isn't something the AI can accurately take into account (since it doesn't account for the Megawar system, and thus assumes "If I have the Reach, Westerlands and Riverlands onside, then the Throne will have to defeat all of them," rather than "raise levies in capital==>press assault==>win."

And I certainly don't want it to be invulnerable, like Ruins. I was just suggesting a boost in garrison so that merely raising the levies of King's Landing itself isn't enough for an immediate assault to be guaranteed to win. If the Iron Throne has time to gather it's troops (or receives reinforcements from a loyal Lord Paramount), that should be enough to assault. Surely both the Faith of the Seven revolt and Cersei's trial suggest that the High Septon can pull together enough local supporters to prevent the king from just going ahead and assaulting with the Gold Cloaks alone; significantly more than an average sept. At the same time, there is little doubt that e.g. Mace Tyrell's army could take out the High Septon. It's that balance that I want to restore.
 
But you're in the mindset that the High Septon always had this support. Then reason the current show and book High Septon was able to do the things he did was because Cersei armed the Faith Militant again to reduce the crown's debt owed.

You're not taking into account the 300 years between this act and Maegar unleashing Balerion on The Sept of Remembrance, the faith was little more than a figure, he had no powers, no land, nothing. You're also not taking into account the reason behind the High Sparrow getting his power, which was a result of the war in the Riverlands, when people were driven to King's Landing to avoid war, which gave him his initial following.
 
What's been suggested could, like D Toccs said, make the HS far too powerful to be defeated in all but the most favorable of conditions for the IT. If he tried to satisfy this relatively small issue in the ways suggested, he'd have to deal with probably dozens of complaints saying that the HS destroys the IT every time he rebels and that the IT can't do anything to beat him, which is a much larger concern.
 
Wandering Sentinel said:
What's been suggested could, like D Toccs said, make the HS far too powerful to be defeated in all but the most favorable of conditions for the IT. If he tried to satisfy this relatively small issue in the ways suggested, he'd have to deal with probably dozens of complaints saying that the HS destroys the IT every time he rebels and that the IT can't do anything to beat him, which is a much larger concern.
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Although, Rubidium´s suggestion sounds really nice. IIRC, king can raise about 5k troops from KL. If Sept of Baelor gets increased garrison to 2k (or even 1k, that could still be enough), king can´t assault it immediately, but can still siege it easily. In that case, HS would be able to hold his bishopric until his reinforcements from surrounding lands come. And if he doesn´t have enough support there, IT army will be able to siege Sept of Baelor until his reinforcements from far away arrive (bishoprics get sieged down pretty quickly, even with big garrison).
 
DorlasAnther said:
Although, Rubidium´s suggestion sounds really nice. IIRC, king can raise about 5k troops from KL. If Sept of Baelor gets increased garrison to 2k (or even 1k, that could still be enough), king can´t assault it immediately, but can still siege it easily. In that case, HS would be able to hold his bishopric until his reinforcements from surrounding lands come. And if he doesn´t have enough support there, IT army will be able to siege Sept of Baelor until his reinforcements from far away arrive (bishoprics get sieged down pretty quickly, even with big garrison).
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Either you're suggesting that the IT could hold out until their support arrives, or you're just saying you want the HS to be able to beat the IT in all but the most unfavorable conditions for a rebellion.
 
Wandering Sentinel said:
Either you're suggesting that the IT could hold out until their support arrives, or you're just saying you want the HS to be able to beat the IT in all but the most unfavorable conditions for a rebellion.
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Difference between "until" and "before" is huge...yet for some of us (a.k.a. me during writing of that reply) there is none :D
Sorry, I meant "before his reinforcements from far away arrive" (yes, English is not my first language, mistakes tend to happen sometimes).
 
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Stop attacking the guy. He's made a valid point. If the High Septon is not captured then it does not matter if the Sept is taken. The High Septon's authority and support is not rooted in a single county or holding. His authority is derived from the faithful. This is where you guys are making false analogies to barons, counts, etc. The problem is rooted in the base mechanics of the game, however, and won't be easily solved. There could be an event that fires if the High Septon leads a rebellion where he temporarily gains a holding in his most powerful ally's land and loses his septs?
 
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laevinus said:
Stop attacking the guy. He's made a valid point. If the High Septon is not captured then it does not matter if the Sept is taken. The High Septon's authority and support is not rooted in a single county or holding. His authority is derived from the faithful. This is where you guys are making false analogies to barons, counts, etc. The problem is rooted in the base mechanics of the game, however, and won't be easily solved. There could be an event that fires if the High Septon leads a rebellion where he temporarily gains a holding in his most powerful ally's land and loses his septs?
Click to expand...

Something like this should already be in the mod. When a civil war led by the High Septon triggers his sept moves to the capital of one of his allies, and returns after the war. I'll double check this works.
 
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